Danger Alert.

Hull are in danger of becoming the new Bradford. Signing everyone elses cast offs.

Last season, there was a lot of people predicting an upsurge in Bradford's form, because they were signing 'reasonable' SL standard players. However, as I pointed out at the time, these were merely cast-offs. Bradford last season were a basket case. Hull, I fear, will be joining them. They need to watch out. Don't forget, we were doing the same thing in the late 90's, when we were strapped for cash, and we just went from bad to worse (bar the Peter Deakin years). It took us years to recover.

Hull really need to watch out

I was going to use Heremia's Rise, fall, Rise, and (no offence) sidewise move on the Kevin Penny Thread , but then I couldnt be bothered.


Heremia strated off in the Bartercard cup then played a bit of lower league Aussie rugby before moving to Widnes Halifax and Leigh, he then went back to play reserve grade in New zealand then reserve grade in Australia before winding up at the Warriors in 2009 when he would have been 26.

So he doesnt have a top flight pedigree ...which is what Sal was alluding to and while he did play in the grand final so did Ryan Bailey over here...!!!

anyway I was going to post that to show that people can take numerous backward steps before ending up in the top flight...the only difference Penny started off well and with great hype and Heremia didnt.

for what its worth I do think Hull are the dreaded dark horses this year like us so many times... they have the capability to beat anyone but they could also stink....
their squad is worse but I didnt rate Agar and I would fancy even this unknown (to Me) Aussie will be better.

When the new owners took over everything was ready for Hull to push on and become serious contenders for trophies. Then they appointed Mcrae as director of rugby and condemned themselves to at least three more years of false hopes and subsequent mediocrity.

I get the feeling we need to watch out...

I can see what you could be saying with cast off i.e. Martin and Aspinwall, but Lynch as a cast off? We bought him from Bradford, and he made more metres, offloads and tackles then any of your players did this season

Probably because he had to.

Andy Lynch has always been a good and underrated player, I would put him ahead of the likes of Bailey and Crabtree, just behind Carvell. Definitely a prop to be respected. But I don't rate their other signings. I don't have anything against Hull, I'd like to see them be a strong team (not overtake us though), just expressing my views that at the moment I am not that impressed.

We'll see how they go. They are certainly an improvement of last season, on the whole:

Seymour-Long
Heremaia-Washbrook
McKinnon-Phelps
O'Carroll-Dowes

We're all most excited about a season without Agar. We have players like Briscoe, Manu, Westerman and Houghton who have undoubted talent and need the right coaching to bring them on to the next step. It's scary to think what Manu could have done in a champion team/with a champion coach over the past few years.

Hasnt Fitzgibbon left this year though? He'll leave a big hole in the team. And the signing of Tony Martin and Aspinwall to play in the backrow?! Barmy. Surely Hull have some U21 backrowers better than Martin Aspinwall? *shakes head*

Indeed we may have some young back rowers who are better, but they have never been tried and tested with the utility mad Agar, who would shift around numerous positions to cater for an injury. Aspinwall will add experienced back up for Tickle, Manu and Westerman, and on a one year deal he has all to play for.

Hull seem to promise everything but deliver nothing.

Over the past 4 years, I would agree. However 2007 we finished 4th, 2006 finished 2nd and Grand Final, 2005 CC cup win... a trend has formed since Agar joined, which is what we need to reverse with the new regime.

Success like that should have been bulit on.To take such massive backwards steps like Hull have,the blame cant be put on the shoulders of Agar.The board must take some responsibility.

That's fair enough. That's how I felt about us signing Deacon a few years ago; low risk signing not costing the earth.

It must grate losing Briscoe to Leeds IIRC and adding Aspinwall?

I think the difference is that Hull cannot do what Warrington did. When Warrington made their move they made it at the right time. Any money man coming into the game now cannot do that. 1st when moran came in we still had the quota system rather than the federation system so as long as your monkeys uncle was british then you did not count. Same for Kolpac players.

Also there was no requirement to have x numbers from your own youth in the squad.

I'm sure the Hull cheif has the the money, but the league now has restrictions that cannot simply be by passed. An element of his squad has to be home grown, then there are contracts to fullfill that are ongoing and the limit on bringing in overseas puts a club lower down the division on a longer curve to get up to the top 4 side they may wish to be.

Who can they buy? What massive quality has been left to purchase come the time pearson took over.

Even if he could stump up the cash for transfers in say £1million for roby and get the head room on the federation for say monaghan. Would he have the room on the cap to fit them in with current contracts and would the player move to a team where silver wear maybe 4 or 5 years down the line, compared to clubs that currently finish in the running year in year out.

Buying success was easier when there where less rules about who can play. Now it's more than just the wage and transfer fee offered. You have to fit it within all the other competing criteria, that money can't buy.

This doesn't make sense though because Hull have just signed four overseas players for next season.

Warrington didn't make their way through signing players whose monkeys uncles were British. Guys like the Monaghans, King, Hicks, Hodgson were/are all on the overseas quota.

Simon Moran spent a lot of money on British signings: Gleeson, Bridge, Grix, Bracek, Reardon, Parker, Barnett, Morley, Johnson, Carvell, Higham, Mathers, Myler, Atkins. Most of those were either GB/England internationals or became internationals with us.

I'm trying to think who we signed that was on a "Kolpak" rule, I think it might have been Logan Swann and Henry Fa'afili. Not sure if the Andersons counted off quota, Vinnie certainly might. But I think it's stretching it to say Simon Moran was able to buy Warrington's success by getting these off quota players and that route is now closed. The players that made a difference were either British or quota Australian players.

absolutely.... we have spent alot on british players..... and look at the standard of our foreign players

M.Monaghan
J. Monaghan
T. Waterhouse
B.Hodgson
Solomona

im looking forward to next season \0/

Sally how many of these players would you call a success?

Well eight of them have won trophies with us so that's pretty successful plus I would say Gleeson was successful as well.

The only really disappointing one IMO was Reardon. Bracek and Barnett were not great but they didn't have big expectations surrounding them either. Parker had a good first year then went into the 'okay but not special' category.

You might be first to see Hull's new players first hand ''If its true you come to KC
for the first game of the new season

At a recent fans forum , Pearson said the Hethringtons and Agar were involved with Briscoes move to L**ds and he had the phone records to prove it . Other's involved have since been sacked from the club.
A total overhaul of the youth structure has or is under way so this sort of thing never happens again.
As for the lack of youngsters coming through to first grade in recent seasons seems to coincided with Agar's reign as head coach . Good at spotting talent but never really blooded anyone in the first team apart from Reece Lynn .
Aspinwal and Martin are on 1 year deals and wont be here for the 2013 season and with a host of other contracts up at the end of 2012 . We should see Pearson's reign as chairman really start to kick in.

My point is that you cant compare these as the same. When you are looking at overseas players now you will not get similar quality as in the past.

Look at Saints and Wire we have signed players heading towards the end of their NRL careers. So a club in a lower position will struggle to get fuirst dibs.

I was not trying to insult the wire but its a fact in the past if your squad had deficiencies all over the feild you could turn it round in a season. Sign 4 overseas players add 4 kolpac or passport players annd fill the rest form those willing to move in SL.

Now Hull have to fill x places from within and if they dont have the correct youth setup already in place then its going to take some time to build a squad to chakllenge.

The fact remains you cant tempt players already on top dollar eg roby or monaghan to a club were sweeping changes are needed which will take some years to turn around.

Well you are away to us first game so you can assess us then.

The last few years have been awful - and like you say, the board should have invested fuerther to build on th cup finals. Instead the did nothing, lived off the profits. It is thought that due to the drop in attendances last year we are looking at a small loss, and with the tex bill coming they wanted a get out. Pearson was there. Nearly all the salary cap was taken up but Peter Gentle wanted Lynch so we signed him. Martin and Aspinwall on 1 year deals are not as bad as they seem. There are a lot of kids i feel that are ready to step up but due to Agar's insistence on not playing them at all, we're not sure so we had to get a bit of experience in just in case.

FWIW, i think our starting 17 will be stronger than last year on the whole.

2011 - 2012

Phelps - McKinnon ------> McKinnon offers a more potent attack than Phelps
Whiting - Sharp --------> I expect Sharp to kick on this year under P Gentle
Turner - Martin ---------> Not sure on this, Turner played quite well at the back end
Yeaman - Yeaman
Briscoe - Yeaman
Horne - Horne -----------> Suffers when having to organise, has Seymour/Ellis now
Long - Seymour -----------> Younger and fitter, good organiser and kicking game
O'Meley - O'Meley
Houghton - Heremaia ---------> NRL Finalist, would have played for NZ to but 4 injury
Dowes - Moa --------------> Probably our best prop in the 2nd half of the year
Manu - Manu -----------> Maybe finally we will utilise him properly
Tickle - Tickle ------------> Expect him to take the captaincy, very underrated player
Fitzgibbon - Westerman ---------> Looks as though we will have a pivot at 13 finally


All in all i am quite optimistic, think it comes mainly from off the field developments. New training facilities, coaching staff, conditioner etc. Pearson stated that the investment in the club had been abysmal in the last few years, something which has already been remedied. Maybe not this year, but in the next few i am hopefull we will be challenging

I take your point Sally but I think it comes down to more than a simple in/out list. Your points about our youth development are very accurate though and is a major part of Pearson/Gentle's plans.

The main key to us is Seymour, if we can get fit HB to lead us around, that in itself will be a huge plus. Horne is still a good player but needs a leader next to him. We would kill for a Monaghan type player.

Long and Gleeson aren't a loss to us, they hardly played. A fit, trouble free Gleeson of a few years ago would be a loss to anyone but we wont miss what we never had. Washbrook (far too slow) n Dowes wouldnt have been in the 17 bar injuries either. Lauaki is a total liability, a penalty machine who doesnt run his weight. Young Briscoe, we'll have to wait and see but potentially could be the worse loss, having said that he wouldnt have got in the first team this season probably. Radford will be missed by us more than many Hull fans realise and Fitz goes without saying. You wire fans will remember his performance at your place at Easter time, he was the main reason we won.

Therefore i think Lynch and O'Caroll improve our front row whilst having reservation about our back 3 if imnjuries strike. However, I look forward to more expansive play from the back 3. In Westerman and Whiting we have 2 of the best footballers around and either would be a fantastic LF for us.

Agar was a joke, and his departure above all else will have most FC fans hoping for better times.

It always took years to turn around. You could never turn it round in a season - name one club in the past that has turned it round in one season by signing loads of Kolpak or passport players. It has never happened. With Warrington it took five years to go from Simon Moran taking us over to us winning the Challenge Cup, the point I was making at the start of the thread though was why are Hull signing the players they are, guys like Tony Martin and Aspinwall etc. Those are just signings to get bodies into the squad, it's preparing for a battle at the lower end of the table. This is exactly what Warrington did in 2001/02 off season and we had a disastrous season.

I can see the constraints on Hull, they wouldn't be able to go out and make wholesale signings for 2012 so maybe the plan is just to make do with what they have got next year and try to make some signings for 2013 when they have cap space and existing players coming off contract, but they need to have a credible year next year, if they struggle they will have the fans saying its another false dawn and ambitious players will never go there, they will just sign players that want a pay day and/or can't get another club.

The great unknown in this is what will Gentle be like as a coach, if he is a coaching genius he might be good at getting the best out of what Hull have got and can get them to a decent position but I think he will come under a lot of pressure if Hull are below Agar and Wakefield next year, Wakey have made some decent signings although they are thin in the pack.

It should have been built on, but wasn't. And you're right, it stems right back to our old board, they went for the cheap option in Agar, and look where that got us.

Thankfully, that board has gone as well as Agar.