Yes and he was also completely clueless defensively, couldn't catch a cold under pressure and wasn't big enough to tackle near our try line.

It was Cullen and Lowes who had Penny in the team.

Tony Smith was the one who didn't rate him and shipped him out on loan.

But at the end of the day Penny was nowhere near the quality of Hicks or Joel Monaghan, he was not as good as Riley either, so thats why he hasn't played for us. Maybe someone like Wigan or Saints will pick him up and he'll come back to haunt us but I wouldn't bank on it.

When discussing wingers it is easy to get carried away with the need for blistering pace above everything else. It is great but our game is more dependent on pushing through in support. Just look how many tries that Lee Briers has scored in the last couple of seasons by supporting breaks. Joel had no support and Wigan had more determination to track back than we did to support. I think Riley and other wingers fall behind king and Joel on tackle one and two. The basis of our attack is based on what happens on tackle one by winning that collision and gaining a quick PTB so the opposition are unable to dominate on tackles 2 and 3 or gaining a penalty for holding down because they have lost collision and fear a quick PTB. How many penalties do Sam tomkins or pat Richards get from kick return plays?

Penny wouldn't have caught it. We'd have all uh'd and aah'd and various people would have been miming "He was gone, wouldn't have caught him" meanwhile, he'd have been throwing the ball into the floor, taking out his gumshield putting out an apologetic hand whilst the scrum is getting formed.

That was best case, worst case was Richards was walking in.

For all J.Monas was slow, it was still a good play and a good read that turned a try for Wigan into an attack for us that should have resulted in a try for us had little-big Monas not had toblerone toes.

I still think Joel is quicker than he showed during that interception run. Maybe he'd took a bang earlier in the game and wasn't able to run at 100%?

I agree he went 100 metres dont forget against huddersfield at MM.

Well he went 70 metres and was nearly ran down by a second row if I remember correctly... and the score didn't even count but...

I don't really buy into this idea that wingers have to be quick, Pat Richards is a bit of a carthorse by a wingers standards, but is good in the air, a strong finisher near the line and good defensively like Joel.

It's differing styles too. (of team)

Whilst we score tries from deep, I always feel that we're a team once we're in your thirty and all of our pivots are playing, good luck, there's so much movement with & without the ball that we cause havoc. With Wigan, whilst they're a threat in your thirty, I think they pack more of a punch from deep with Sam, and that shift to the left they have with Carmont & Richards.

Whilst Joel might be on the slow side, we aren't a side that shifts it right from deep to set him free, if we're attempting to score from deep, we go left, that's our shift. He, like the team comes into his own from close range.

We have score more tries form our own half than any other team in SL.

Ive seen Pat Richards go virtually the length of the field on plenty of occasions, quite a few were identical to the chance Joel Monaghan had against Wigan.

He scored against us from long range at the DW with an intercept, the one where Riley came across from the other side but couldn't quite stop him.

Again last night against Hull Pat Richards intercepted near his own 10 metre line and went the length of the field. You would expect most wingers to finish off those kind of chances ( especially a former test and Origin player) where you intercept as the attack is going in the opposite direction to you so you get a head start, even Lee Briers has finished off an intercept from around his own 20 and he aint regarded as being quick.

Not bad for a carthorse thats come back from a serious leg injury.

Whats not bad.... 9 times out of ten a winger will go full length if they intercept on the run, and the oppositions quick players are up with play, Carvell went 70 metres against Saints didn't he, Joel went 70 metres against Hudds, Pat Richards scoring a few interceptions doesn't mean he isn't slow compare to the majority of wingers.

The fact Richards was nearly ran down by wingers coming from the opposite side of the pitch, highlights my point that he is slow for a winger.

The main point I was trying to make is that one of the best wingers in SL isn't exactly quick so it isn;t exactly a neccesity when Joel has other weapons in his nal.

Maybe, but they'll go through hands, that's the difference. We can score distance tries with people in support etc, we're very good at pushing through.

I'd say Wigan are better or have more capability of 'solo' distance tries.

Going to really miss King next season he seems to get better each week since he came back from injury but we do have Ratchford/Evans to try and fill the gap.

I think we will be better up the middle Waterhouse will fit right in with his offloading game and I think Hill is going to suprise a few (not Leigh fans) people.

Can only see Smith making one more signing which when be a replacement for Clarke if he goes.

Keep hearing Jon Wilkin to Wire from a few people (Saints fans included).

He's 28 but do we need him?

Good player and versatile but is he better than what we have? Probably not. I'd rather us push some of our younger lads (Laithwaite, Ben Evans) up the order personally.

Quality - of course we do

Grix is a better option long term, although Grix has played at hooker for us before.

We need a hooker, we have back up in most positions that can do a decent job bar hooker.
Either promote from the youth or get someone in, Withers might not set the world alight but he'll do a job at interchange we'll only need 25-30 mins out of him anyway with Monas doing the big stint.

Michael Witt

We need to get rid of Higham, liability most of the time, but will anyone take him.

we don't need Witt, i'm only suggesting Withers because he's available.

I like Withers he would be an improvement on Clarke and Higham IMO. Gamestar in the League Express today, when Crusaders beat Wakefield.

I like Higham, I know sometimes he is predicvtable but he always livens the team up (maybe tries a bit too hard sometimes and makes mistakes). Yesterday against Bradford he was really up for it in one tackling stint he made 3 of the 6 tackles. He ran the ball in well, Passed it well and did most thing to a high level, Would Witt/Withers really improve on that??

NOT SURE MYSELF