Probably would do. Would also like to see packs made to pack down so props hooker second row n loose. Would see a bit more adventure off the back of a scrum if the back line was not making up the scrum with the pack in defence!!!

Yep ... but can't you see that we are all too critical of our own team.
Go on other clubs' forums and you see the same thing.
Thousands of rugby league supporter would love to have a club like Wire to support.
I know how bad we have been but it's all to do with expectation. Salford expected beggar all ... therefore they feel good. Wigan expected to win all again ... they will feel less good.

Cheer up ... at the moment you must be happier than Leeds, Wigan, Hull & remember Bradford.

Liverpool is a good analogy here. Like you say, they expect to be challenging, but they aren't taking an approach with Klopp of 'second place is failure, win in 2019/20 or sack him'. They realise that whilst they have good resources, their rivals like City and United can match their resource power too.

Which is like us - I could understand the 'second best is nowhere' attitude if we were on a different level to Saints, Wigan, etc but we are subject to the same salary cap as they are. The way some people talk about us needing to win SL because of our supposedly huge financial advantage should look at the evidence of who we are actually signing. In 2019, we made one big signing, Blake Austin - ONE! When you saw us signing the likes of Jason Clark, Lama Tasi, Matt Davis, Danny Walker, did you think wow with all this firepower we are going to blow the opposition away. It's obvious with those kind of signings that we face recruitment constraints.

Good spot I haven't looked at my signature for years.

The whole 'League Champions' thing in there seems unnecessarily pompous but hey.

My source of annoyance ,Smiffy, is not that we haven't reached OT , it's the way we have been so one dimensional that we have capitulated in so many games & given away a 12 point lead over the nearest club below us in the table. Obviously ,Saints have been out of sight for months, but other clubs below us have improved while we have deteriorated.

This is surely correct.

I think Fitzgerald is quoted as saying we don't have a second marquee signing on our books at the moment. If correct then how are we spending the money as our squad has looked thin this year with a lack of quality in too many positions.

To answer your question no i didnt think that. Our recruitment has been a mixed bag as is our ability to extract value for money from existing players.

In answer to the point about Klopp, LFC fans could see progress as Klopp is one of the best managers in world football. Do you think the same of Price?

Theres a season upon season improvement at Liverpool and I would add that the sporting director has been just as influential as klopp in delivering the successes we have had. He has built a team and structure to aide klopp in being successful he has also done some good business!!!

No, but what you have said there is the standard that matters - do we see progress, rather than 'he has to win the Grand Final in 2020 or its time to go'.

I think with every coach there is a tipping point where things change from the club progressing under him, to stagnating and slipping backwards. But it sometimes gets lost in the variability of results. Sometimes the team can be on a bad run, but still moving in the right direction overall (eg the early part of Price's first season), other times the team can be on a good run that masks stagnation (eg the early part of 2016 when Sandow was at his peak).

With hindsight I think we could say that with TS, there was a tipping point maybe around mid to late 2015. With Cullen it was mid 2006, around the time we lost to Hull KR in the Cup. With Darryl Van de Velde it was early in 2000. With Brian Johnson it was around the time we lost the Regal Trophy in 1995. In each case I think that was the time we would have benefited from a change.

The big question is are we at (or even past) that point now with Price.

Leeds didn't waste time wondering with Furner and admitted their error so if Price is not the right man KF should have the conkers to correct matters

Just swop Karl for Ed

Look lads we can’t make arguments around “if we hadn’t won the Challenge Cup it would have been a failure of a season.”

We won the damn thing, and took our local bitter rival down to do so, and so in reality it has been a very successful season.



Thing is , having seen a mountain of failed seasons over the last 40 years, I know a successful season when I see one



Wires didn’t start with Super League you know

All fair comments, but most of us know good rugby when we see it. The number of games lost is also a telling stat. If I was marking this season even with the CC I couldn’t give us more than a C+.

The nub of this is that we are all disappointed with our attack when in the opposition half. A new top class half back should help. Blake Austin is not a creative half back ... he's a runner. In addition if Gelling has a strength it is his creativity.
The Wire think tank has a few months before the start of next season to come up with and practice to solve the problem.
Finishing 4th and winning at Wembley are not a sign of failure. Several other clubs spend the maximum of the cap. We have no right to expect much better. But the way we went down hill was alarming. Thank God the season is over ... but blimey winning at Wembley felt so good.

Exactly. The ambitious clubs make the change in time. Leeds/Furner, Saints/Cunningham.

I don't disagree with most of what you say but your argument did contain the "why do fans who don't achieve much in life expect so much from a club" and I argued that there need not be a parallel between an individuals aspiration and that of the club they support.


Secondly, I think 3 years is long enough for a top coach to create a GF winning side. I'd be happy with Price continuing into 2020 but for a) the style of play b) his misalignment of expectations thinking this was a good season c) His inability to drive consistent results.

I suspect we will start 2020 as we finished 2019 and he'll be gone by Easter if the club have any cojones.

Would you be happy with the next 10 years winning a CC but missing/bombing out of the playoffs...?

I wonder how we would have felt if we had been as ambitious as Leeds and jettisioned Price early in the season to appoint Richard Agar.

To be fair if you offered me winning the CC 11 seasons on the run and not making playoffs I would take that! I'd swap a fair few of them for winning the grand final though.

I would. We would have achieved something historic and smashed Wigan's records.

Winning 11 Challenge Cups in a row would be an unparalleled period of dominance. Yes, it would be a shame to not win the Grand Final but lets be honest the more likely scenario is we won't win a Grand Final in the next 10 years anyway, and will win maybe 1 or 2 Challenge Cups if we are lucky. For the first 20 years I watched Wire we won neither.

So yes if this is deal or no deal, and the banker is offering a future of 11 Challenge Cups in a row, it's thanks very much banker its a deal for me.

Out of interest I'd like to hear your rationale for this (I don't disagree)

If Fitzpatrick stays running the show for that 10 year period then yes.
If I was running the show for that 10 year period then no.

Expectations are high. We spend the most money...results ought to reflect it.
My worry isn't Saints next season onwarda but Toronto.

How do you work out "we spend the most money". Surely we spend the same as St Helens, Wigan, Hull, Leeds and Catalan ... top Salary Cap. Unless of course you know something different?

Ok, so if we all agree that a half back is either a creative type player or a runner, then the question has to be asked - what the **** is Dec Patton, because he is neither creative or a runner?