I actually thought the Headingley Ashes test a few weeks later was a more exciting finish.

I think it was because after that ball hit Stokes' bat and went for overthrows part of me felt that NZ had been done over by raw luck. If that had been Australia or India I wouldn't have cared, but with NZ being likeable underdogs I felt bad for them. From that point on, I wouldn't have really minded if NZ won the final.

In the Headingley test, England were the underdogs and at 10 wickets down were rank outsiders, and the opposition was Australia so I was far more invested.

Stokes was the common denominator in both...he must be THE biggest 'big game' performer I've ever seen from England in any sport, with Gary Lineker/Shearer probably the next best.

Really mate? no doubt the lads had a great year and was lucky to be part of a very good one day team, but until this year on the whole his career has been fairly inconsistent imo, with bat and ball, hence his averages. Don't you remember the T20 final 2016 where we had a big lead in the last over to win the Trophy and Stokes got took for 4 sixes and WI won.

No doubt it was an excellent innings at Headingley but for me it isn't the best I've seen even in Leeds, that would be Pietersen's against SA in 2012 where he dominated Steyn, Philander & Morkel like they were U13 side and they were the best bowling attack atm, scored 149 off about 200 balls. I can't take away what Stokes done this summer, he's really come of age & he's finally becoming the batman I thought he would be in Test cricket, but for me Pietersen is still by some distance the best big game player England have had, as well as playing some of their best innings full stop, when it was the Ashes or India or SA, or when we won the World T20, Pietersen always seemed to put on a show.

Wasn’t forward and wouldn’t be given in Union. Inconclusive at best.

I take it you never saw Ian Botham? His 149 at Headingly in 1981 was off 148 balls against Australia whos attack included the likes of Dennis Lillee and Geoff Lawson! A match winning innings without a doubt along with the 7 or 8 wickets he also took in the game! Pieterson was a great batsman but in terms of match winners can't be mentioned in the same breath as Botham! And Botham was English of course!

The Ashes match at Headingly was miraculous, but for me the World Cup Final was the bigger stage and so the stakes were highest and hence the spectacle.

I think the one thing that cricket will achieve this year is a quite unique double (though I'm not a big enough anorak to check if this will be the first time), where sportsmen from the same sport will win the Sports Personality of the Year (Stokes) and the Overseas Sportsman award (Steve Smith).

As for the better occasion, I think the Headingley test just outdoes the World Cup Final for the sheer 'miracle' of it - Saying that, both occasions showed how much sheer good fortune can pay in sport. In both matches, England had enormous amounts of luck and contributed massively to the drama of the events.

2005 Flintoff and Warne
1997 Rusedski and Hingis
I'll get my anorak

Botham had a lot of games where he was a match winner, especially with the ball too in the early part of his career. Sadly by the time I started watching cricket he was an ageing force with a back injury, but whenever it rained in a Test match the BBC used to show that Headingley 1981 with Richie Benaud commentating "won't even bother looking for that, let alone chasing it...." etc.

I have to agree on Pietersen. I liked him very much and thought he got a rough deal from England but I wouldn't call him a reliable big game player. He was a player who sometimes scored big but often got out to a loose shot when he was on 70 or so. You couldn't rely on him. I'd put him in the same category as Joe Root and David Gower.

For me the best big game batsman England had was Graham Gooch during the period he was captain in the early 1990s. That was an iconic era of great fast bowlers and there were a lot of legendary batsmen around as well but Gooch was world no1 for a lot of that period. I remember him getting a match winning century on a green wicket in Headingley against peak West Indies quicks in a game where everyone else from both teams struggled. He made big runs under pressure against Wasim and Waqar and Hughes/Warne at their peaks as well. I think he is massively underrated in cricketing history.

Another good shout would be Graham Thorpe as well although he often performed well under pressure in losing causes, he wasn't really a match winner.

Spot on...still for me our best ever player/all rounder...he wouldn't take no crap off the big mouthed Aussie's...

Wasn't that the match when Lillee and Rod Marsh put on bets for England to win and won over 7,000 quid as a result?

Yes mate

Funnily enough I was at Headingley as a 7 year old with my dad in 81. Of course Bothams' knock at Headingley is one of the best ever by an England player and the one he did at Old Trafford was an excellent knock as well, as he himself has said ,Headingley was a bit of a slog that gradually turned into something, whereas the one at OT was far better quality innings.. He was a great player between 1977 and 1982 and then declined badly. Lets not forget that headingley was as much about the bowling of Bob Willis, who's 8-43 was probably more impressive imo, considering the circumstance of the Aussies needing only 130.

The fact he never produced anything against the best attack of that time the WI's can't be overlooked, he averages 15 with that bat and 32 with ball.

Anyway as far as KP, I've followed England around the world for nearly 30 years and imo he's easily the most exciting player I've seen, let alone he's a great player who played great innings.
Innings like the first one that set his career off, smashing Warne, McGrath, Brett Lee etc around like an U13 team scoring 158 (187)
Not long after against Sri Lanka and a bowler named Muralitharan made our team look like they'd never played before but KP came in and smashed 142(157) we only scored 295 as a team and that won us the match.
His vicious 225 (30icon_cool.gif in Aus helped us win the 2nd test in 2010.
After England lost every test in the UAE and were 1-0 down in SL, he produced another spectacular knock on an absolute spinning dust bowl scoring 151 (165) winning us the match.
The 1st test against India to become the No.1 team in the world he smashed 202 no to win., then in the 4th test he smashed another 175 to win again.
Like I mentioned before his 149 against an attack of Steyn, Philander, Morkel, Kallis, Imran Tahir was as brutal as I've seen.
Then imo the best innings played by an England player abroad was that 186(222) on a rank turner when we were 1-0 down in a country we haven't won in decades, that led to us turning the series around and winning.

The inning that beats KP's best was Gooch's 154 no against WI. What made it great wasn't just because it was England's first win in years or because the ball was swinging around corners; it was because England had been bowled out for 198 but then WI replied with only 173, so Goochie went to work in the 2nd inning scoring 154 and no other player scored over 27 to post 252. Oh aye did I mention he was facing Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh & Patterson, now that's frightening. We went on to draw that series 2-2 as well against the great West Indies.

As far as Gooch being underrated, personally I think he's seen as one of England's best but if he is underrated it's probably because for the first 15 years of his career he only averaged 36 in 73 tests and was an inconsistent batsmen who got regularly dropped. He also got banned for three years following a rebel tour to ostracized South Africa in the early 80's, which some hold against him. He averaged 51 in his last 5 years which was from being about 36 to 42 years old. He almost had the opposite career to Botham, great at the end, average at the start, Botham was great at the start and average to poor after that.



Damn that turned into a long reply, but was replying to 2 posters there.

Teah England were 500-1 and they put a bet on for a laugh.

2nd half of GB v Tonga RL or turnover for England v NZ Ru hmmmmm??

2nd half of Tonga v GB RL or turnover for England v NZ rl??hmmmm

Well I watched England New Zealand and 'taped' GB v Tonga and I know which game was more enjoyable

Union are now playing more ‘League’ than League are.

Rugby League in the main seems to be turning into a 5 drives bore fest. The ‘Yawnion’ jibes can’t really be poked anymore.

You only have to look at this mornings games, England Rugby Union playing a more ‘exciting brand’ of rugby than England/GB RL.

Union have taken the best bits from Rugby League and taken their game to the next level.

Made up England have made it to final just hope the taffs get walloped tmrw

Awesome this morning, very enjoyable game. They actually outplayed the all blacks at their own game. Defence was tremendous. Rugby league has gone more boring, definitely. That's the pinnacle of rugby union though, the best 2 teams in the rankings, its a shame it wasn't the final it would have been a fitting game for a final.

I hope Wales win tomorrow and england spank them with a cricket score in the final.

Quote ="CW8"Awesome this morning, very enjoyable game. They actually outplayed the all blacks at their own game. Defence was tremendous. Rugby league has gone more boring, definitely. That's the pinnacle of rugby union though, the best 2 teams in the rankings, its a shame it wasn't the final it would have been a fitting game for a final. I hope Wales win tomorrow and england spank them with a cricket score in the final.'" I note the BBC highlights of the game is a 34 second video and that includes footage of a kick at goal. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50194297

Quote ="CW8"Awesome this morning, very enjoyable game. They actually outplayed the all blacks at their own game. Defence was tremendous. Rugby league has gone more boring, definitely. That's the pinnacle of rugby union though, the best 2 teams in the rankings, its a shame it wasn't the final it would have been a fitting game for a final. I hope Wales win tomorrow and england spank them with a cricket score in the final.'" I note the BBC highlights of the game is a 34 second video and that includes footage of a kick at goal. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50194297

Quote ="Wires71"I note the BBC highlights of the game is a 34 second video and that includes footage of a kick at goal. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50194297'" Note, noted.

Quote ="Wires71"I note the BBC highlights of the game is a 34 second video and that includes footage of a kick at goal. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50194297'" Note, noted.

I fear for the future of "our" game when die hards are getting bored.

The Wales v South Africa game bored me into doing the washing up.

It was shockingly bad. Wales battering at the SA line was just as boring as our 5 drives and an aimless kick. The number of mistakes from SA and the standard of their kicking from hand was terrible. I suppose it's a crumb of comfort to know such poor quality games also occur in a major RU game featuring their best players. I did however think the England game was great entertainment and something we (KFP) need to bring to the HJ next year.

Aye a dreadful, drab game this morning.