Ill say it again, and I apologise for it- we lost in the forwards because our defensive line stood back. Watch the game back and look at saints’ defensive line throughout the game. They swarmed us. Man on man, we are at least as good as them. Our defensive line/pressure/speed has lost it.

Calling Ratchford a 'coward' don't make you look tough.

And me?..I think if we wait a while you might upset me sometime soon...I'll make myself a packed lunch and I'll fetch you a couple of biscuits.

You mean when there was a 2 point ball game before Cooper spoilt the game.
Play that game over again without that error and they'd be nothing in it...we were beaten in 7 of those 10 min Cooper was off.
Following his return, Wire just tried risk football and blew everything.
However, linespeed, defence, backing up and playing kicking was superb from Saints.

Bad day for Wire but like last season, wull be switched on for the big games that matter. It'll be different yet again.

For what its worth , from the minute we had the ball Saints were throwing in 3 4 or 5 tacklers in. Controlling the ruck and we had no plan B. That's where we lost in End of Story .
However we are still a good side , we just need to learn from it .

Can see Saints winning the lot this season.Oustanding in every department.

Deja vu.

This time last season exactly the same.

However the wheels fell off in the games that mattered.

So often now there is a stand out team at this point in the season that is nailed on to win the GF, then they don't, case in point:

2018 - Saints
2017 - Cas
2016 - Wire
2014 - Leeds
2012 - Wigan/Wire
2011 - Wigan/Wire

I think this Saints fan got it about right.

Can't provide him with an argument this morning.

The one bright spot was Matt Davis ... very impressive. He hits and works hard. He'll take some shifting. We need a bit of a re-think about our ranking of forwards.

I agree.

There were certainly contributory factors, but we have been here before haven't we ? Catalans in the cc final, Catalans away this year and now Saints have used their big fast packs to close down our middle, stopping us getting down the pitch but more importantly stifling our creative play (mainly Austin) and preventing the ball getting to our wingers. Even London with their small pack sewed up the middle for long periods.
We need to register the problem rather than saying "this is not us", or "we are better than this". I agree the defensive line was not nearly as energised as it should be, but we can not afford second string forwards like Tasi, Akuola and Matt Davis. Even Jason Clark looked ineffective with ball in hand. Please sign a couple of decent props with a bit of weight on them for next year.

They say there are only two outcomes to a game; winning or getting a learning opportunity. Lets hope we do learn and don't revert to the definition of madness; repeating the same thing over and over again but expecting a different outcome.

The frustratingly brilliant thing about St Helens is that you know its coming. Big human runs, gets on the ground quick and Roby races away while the defence retreat. You can’t be aggressive and play with lots of line speed while in retreat, all you can do is finish your sets well and hope to get a dominant tackle on a winger/full back and control that set.

Therein lies the problem. We can’t kick! When we got it right, we challenged Grace (twice from memory), but Coote and Grace both caught high kicks uncontested and then it’s a race to the 20 and we’re running the wrong way! That coupled with trying to find touch and Percival snapping it up, Cooper getting caught in possession on the last and Toby King having a go at kicking (no disrespect but that’s a sign of a lack of control) just leave is starting sets on Saints’ terms.

We need to find a way to kick under pressure and find the ground. Chipping it to the defenders is self sabotage. I’d kill for a Michael Monaghan who could kick from dummy half when we’re coming away from out line and find space, and the odd 40/20.

I think you ought to watch the game again and keep your eye on ... Matt Davis.

I agree our lack of a kicking game is criminal. This SHOULD be the area Patton excels in but alas he isnt good enough. You need to turn teams like Saints around and we're incapable of it at present. We should also have been finding touch at each opportunity when down to 12.

I agree he was very active Smiffy, there is no denying his work ethic, and he gets through a awful lot of tackling ( 52 apparently in his last game on loan to London), but, we need to make progress down the field with ball in hand as well. We can't expect Hill and Cooper to do all that for us, and Davis is far too small to do that. "A good big un is better than a good small un"

Going back a week ,& although the final score was convincing, London spent a lot of the game making great in roads through our defence & camped on our line but were unable to capitalise on their efforts.

When all things are equal ... I agree "a good big un is better than a good small un". But they are rarely equal.
Whatever ... you'd have to be very blinkered to exclude Davis in the next few weeks.

As mentioned saints catalan'd us which is a problem, I also agree about starting philbs, it reduces what impact we get off the bench.

However I did think last night price got his subs wrong,we took philbin and hill off I think before saints made any changes, then they made 3 fairly quickly.

I dont know whether he was saving interchange for the second half, obvs the sin binning cocked that up but by the time he brought Davis and tasi on, the game was gone

We were very poor and seemed to be outmuscled and Saints did things a bit quicker than us. We also made a few crucial errors at important moments in the game.

It happens. It doesn't suddenly make Ratchford a crap player, or our pack useless. We need to patch a few things up, and hopefully we will.

Calls for Ratchford to be moved or dropped are laughable. You lost your second game of the season to an easily superior Saints team on the night. they absolutely destroyed you upfront. SR never had his best game but is in the top 3 fullbacks in the league for what he offers. Far worse problems arising from last night than him. It's one game and you's will no doubt be there or there about come October. Just about sucking it up and bouncing back over Easter. Thought it was probably fair to show Cooper a yellow, he didn't miss but it was just a lazy arm with no malice in it. Tommy L's late attempt on Grace i thought was worse but thats just me.

Saints were quicker and seemed to want it more. Our PTB was way too slow to get a roll on, our off loading went astray as we were playing catch up, and our game just unraveled. Sin binning of Cooper proved costly, and Lineham was lucky not to get binned as well. Some players had a poor game, but overall were a better side than what we showed last night.
Two points lost, our season is far from over as there are more important fixtures than this to come.

That is when it will count. If you're only using one game as a comparison, then Coote is the better player.
However, you made the point of how difficult it is to play behind a beaten pack, and Coote played behind one that made all the meters. They're both good players, and the debate will rumble on, but I cannot forgive Ratchford for ducking out of going for that kick that gifted you your first try of the second half.

Usual overreaction to a defeat. Talk of dropping Ratchford is ridiculous (he was far worse in the Huddersfield game last year) and what has Sita done to deserve a go? Remember we'll have Ben Westwood available which should allow Philbin to go back to the bench. I guess Lineham will get a ban, so Mamo is hopefully fit (or Goodwin). BMM injured too?

Ratchford
Mamo/Goodwin
Atkins
King
Charnley
Austin
Patten
Hill
Clark
Cooper
Currie
Hughes
Westwood

Philbin
Clark
Davis
Walker/Livett/Tasi

is still a class team. I guess we might see Sita at some point in the next two weeks. Maybe Jack Johnson too. Is Luis Johnson back now as well? I can't remember who's gone to Sheffield - Moran?

If Price drops players due to one off poor performances (Lineham at Catalans) then why is it ridiculous to suggest Ratchford should be dropped for dishing up that horror show last night? We lost because Saints were much better than us but Ratchford (nor any player) should be immune from the drop when necessary....for their own good. It might well teach him that at some point in his career he has to put his body on the line.

In pure black and white terms, you'd drop Ratchford. However, Lineham was dropped and we had a relatively like for like replacement in Mamo.

In Ratchford's case he brings so much to the team there simply isn't a replacement that wouldn't [iseriously[/i weaken the team. Despite a poor performance, with Austin anonymous, he was still our most dangerous back with his running game. His goal kicking is A1 at the moment. Mamo is not in the same class.

Saints had an off day last week. They didn't react by wielding the axe even though there were several sub-standard performances. They regrouped and went again. We need to do the same, two wins over Easter is easily within our capabilities.