In fairness, there's only one way you can go from the season in 2006. We won the lot, and would probably have added the Grand National, Boat Race and X Factor had we bothered to enter them.

For us to truly have declined, I'd say we'd have to go from a team that can challenge for trophies to one which cannot. While I fear that our abysmal start to the season, and lack of experienced coaching staff, makes it unlikely we'll challenge this year, I think the true test is whether we are back in the mix next year. If we are still struggling to make an impact on the competition, I'll concede it's a decline.

A one season blip doesn't make a decline, just as a one off trophy win doesn't herald the start of an era.

You say it yourself though: other teams have got better and that's why we have gone trophy-less since 2008. The likes of Warrington, Wigan, Huddersfield and Catalans are now amongst the top clubs; it's no longer just Saints and Leeds or Saints and Bradford, so that added competition has made it difficult to maintain a top two league spot. I don't think that league position is evidence of a decline as such, but more evidence of the league (at the top) becoming closer.

It's not all bad though as we have the likes of Gaskell (not ready yet), Lomax (played out of position), Makinson (best of the lot) and Wheeler (development stunted through constant injury) all coming through establishing themselves as first team players - that's why we aren't in decline and are in a state of stagnation IMO. They've been thrown in the deep-end and it paid of last year as their enthusiasm got us all the way to the GF, yet a run of poor performances and their confidence is shattered this season.

I'd be willing to argue all day with any idiot who suggests that a team with a half-back partnership of Gaskell/Loma/Holidayhiho (perm any 2 from the 3) is better than one with Pryce/Eastmond as half-backs.

You think Eastmond and Pryce were our halfbacks last year?

Oh sorry my mistake I thought Pryce and Eastmond were both St Helens players last season.

Maybe it is a dispute of semantics but I would see a team like Quins (the past couple of seasons) stagnating or, before this season, Bradford or maybe Wakefield. They have attracted the same sort of player, maintained the same league position and had the same sort of win/loss record. While Saints went from, as someone above said, winning the world in 2006 to CC wins in 2007 and 2008 to nothing from 2009 till today. That seems like a decline, does it not? We just have to admit to a certain extent Saints have declined. It simply isn't the same team that was around in 2006.

Stagnation (apart from the negative connatations which I would not apply to Saints) implies you have reached rock bottom, which implies you have been declining.

The dispute on whether saints are still declining is good one. You seem to think the worst is over and that it can only get better. I'm not so sure. I think sacking Royce (which is the point of this thread), an experienced coach who got you to a GF, for a former player & head of coditioning and a shadow, is only going to compile the misery.

This looks like it is going to be a tough season but I don't think Saints are going to be the new bradford (former giants made small) but I can't see improevemnt in any aspect in the very near future. Lyon would help, a new coach would help, getting rid of Eammon as decision maker WOULD help (sorry)

A few side notes, I would argue that SAints allowing other teams to catch up shows decline. There is no reason to assume that Saints were disadvantaged as they could have still attracted the same better players and coaches and still brought through amazing youngsters. This isn't football where money buys success, it is an organic thing that teams have to work hard for.

Secondly, and no disresesct and you didn't hear this from me, but a saints win would be good for us this weekend. It would be like the Widnes win against Wigan last week. Someone out the top 8 knocking off one of our rivals is good. So good luck this weekend.

They were on the roster, of course they were, but featured to the smallest degree and, particularly in the case of Eastmond, any impact they made was largely negative.

We are not missing Pryce and Eastmond this year because, simply, we never had them as a partnership to miss.

No it doesn't

You are correct. My fault, it was a poor choice of words. It does imply that a lack of movement or ,in this case, growth/ improvement though.

So I was say that if Saints aren't declining or improving (but stagnating), Albion is implying saints have reached as low as they can and are, therefore, only going to improve. I hope I have explained my thinking better.

I do not agree that Saints have reached that low and there are a few more losses, maybe some more internal tensions and a reduced ability to man the team successfully etc.

I think saints will continue to decline but will ultimately come back stronger. It could be called a transitional period, if you believe that clubs go trough them

should`nt of sacked him he was doing a super job with a really average team..would`nt be surprised if they beat leeds this weekend tho...

. This isn't football where money buys success, it is an organic thing that teams have to work hard for'"

I suppose 'decline' all depends on how you view it, for example you say that the fact that we have allowed other teams to catch up with us as we haven't kept our high standard of players [uIS[/u evidence of decline, whereas I say that the fact we are still challenging for honours (possibly not the season though!) is good evidence that we are [uNOT[/u in decline -it's a fact that we have made every GF since 2006 and from the top of my head possibly every semi final in the challenge cup since then - so it's a matter of how you view the situation.

McManus has quite cleverly (IMO anyway) took all the pressure and sting out of the next three fixtures as the fans will realise that we have nothing to lose going into them. If Royce was still in charge then the amount of pressure that the players would be under would be immense and lead to even more misery if we failed to perform: now the players can refocus without the added pressure.

Whether that's a good tactic is unclear and I'm sure we'll find out Sunday.

I don't think the worst is over, but I don't think it could/can get any worse!

If Eastmond and/or Pryce were at Saints this year then Royce Simmons would have still been in a job at Saints.

The recruitment policy by Siants over the last couple of seasons has been poor. To an extent it is a consequence of believeing their own over-hyping of the ability of Gaskell and Lomax at this stage of their careers. People were calling for these two to be England's four nation half-backs yet now they can't hack it together at Super League level.

come on london

It was impossible to keep Eastmond (maybe it wouldn't have been had we been allowed a similar dispensation as Wigan were re. Tomkins), and Pryce wanted a longer, more lucrative deal than we were prepared to offer given he'd sat a season out injured and the extent of his recovery was something of an unknown.



The signing of Hohaiah wasn't one which I'd have gone for, but he was an established and high profile NZ international, so it's hard to be too critical of it and it is very early in his Saints career to write him off.

It wasn't just Saints fans rating Gaskell and Lomax. They were highly rated because they were performing well. This might be 'second season syndrome', or it might be that their confidence is sapped playing behind a beaten pack in a team that has been sent out with apparently little to no game plan / set plays to work from.

This Saints team, pre season, were widely tipped to be Warrington's closest challengers for top spot. That is in the knowledge that Pryce and Eastmond are no longer here, and in the knowledge that Graham has left a huge hole.

That they haven't looked close to top 4 material thus far, despite having a squad that was judged by many to be top 2, has to be down to the manner in which they have been prepared for games.

All this 'weak squad, poor recruitment' stuff has only really appeared after our awful start. There weren't many declaring this before the season kicked off.

I'm not fishing or being intentionally demeaning of this saints team, but is that what it has become now? I appreciate getting to so many Grand Finals on the bounce is great (I wish we could get to one

) but is that really what the same team that has won the most trophies out of any one in the super league era wants now? That seems like setting the sights awfully low for such a great team. Warrington won a challenge cup and after a few games in the next season the fans expected to win the Grand Final. Has a so many year just dull that desire?

I'd also like to pint out there I have, as is implied in my quote in your sig, never stated that Saints decline was/is quick. It has certainly become apparent this season (saints usually have a slow start) and it looks like it will get worse but I think the wheels are coming off one by one (for lack of a better term) Good players left, trophies stopped coming, no new top drawer players were brought in or through academy, performances on the field are now suffering and it COULD go as far as struggling to make the playoffs and long losing streaks (although it probably won't) In fact, many saints fans are saying a CC run is your best chance for a trophy and while I don't believe that, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if this is your first final-less season this year. If that happens would you accept decline?

I would dispute McManus' judgement on the sacking. I have seen a couple of people on the saints board expecting a win in the next three game (some even 2) and that is since Royce has been sacked. I don't think that is going to happen (there is a possibility this week). But KC is a former player and is a friend of Wellens, Roby and many others, is untrained in coaching and hasn't had long with them. He will get more respect than Royce appears to have been getting this season but I would hate to see SAints fans turn on KC cause je continues the losing streak and it really isn't his fault.

I have said it before, a lot of promising coaching names will get burnt by this toxic saint team this season and maybe next.

As a Saints fan, if we're getting ourselves to the big games and in a position to lift a trophy, that's good enough for me. I don't think anyone should 'expect' to win a trophy at this stage in the season.



I think this season it is. Given our awful start, and the fact that we'll likely go the rest of the season with an inexperienced makeshift coaching partnership trying to stop the dam from leaking, I think it's too big an ask to expect a serious launch at the title. If we get close to OT it will be a fantastic achievement from this position.

I made the point earlier in this thread that if this season is 'final-less', I'd see it more of a blip than evidence of a decline. If next season also sees us slip down the table and struggle to make an impact on the comps, then I'd accept it.




Not many of us expect much out of the next 3 games, I'm hoping for some exciting rugby and players who appear to have practiced a set move or two during training. That would be an immediate improvement and, who knows, might sneak us something out of one of the games. If it doesn't, we'll be no worse off - Simmons was not going to get the team up for these games, that much was evident from previous performances.

The fans won't turn on MR or KC, they have been asked to step in and do the best they can while we seek a permanent solution.

This 'toxic' Saints team was one which many, many fans, players and pundits had marked out as top 2 material this season. They're not the average, or even below-average, squad that people now seem to think they are.

I think Cragganmore Kid gives a good response to each question you pose really.



I thought I'd pay particular attention to this really as I don't think it's accurate and I think you're exaggerating a bit. What coach wouldn't love to take on the task of rebuilding a Saints team? Yes it will be a difficult task to get us winning trophies again, but name one coach who doesn't want to test himself. We finally have the infrastructure and the new coach will have the chance to bring through all these youngsters who have bags of potential.

If you look at our best 13, I think you'd find it hard to say that it is as poor as you are making out really. Say for instance this is the starting 13 (IMO of course and at the minute):

1. Wellens
2. Gardner
3. Wheeler
4. Shenton
5. Makinson
6. Lomax
7. Hohaia
8. Perry
9. Roby
10. Laffranchi
11. Soliola
12. Flanagan
13. Wilkin

It's hardly as bad a team to inherit is it?

If we can gain confidence and structure from the new coach then we are still a top 4 team definitely, but don't get me wrong the team isn't there atm (understatement) and I'd say it's just a blip.

This was my least confident assumption but I am still fairly confident of it. However, I cannot say for certain, as I have not seen saints in the flesh yet and have not seen many game of saints.

It was born of an mix between the 2 or so matches I have seen and the highlights, plus what other Saints fans are saying; reputable fans.

People who are disappointed with a lack of a replacement for James Graham (both in terms of hard hitting prop and as a leader of the team)
People who question the addition of Lance
Laffranchi use out of position
Too much reliance on youngsters (all of whom appear to have second season syndrome)
The fear that a team without Roby is a losing team

It goes further, too. The past couple of seasons there hasn't been a marquee signing from saints. Perry is about as big as it got and he has been about as much use as a cock flavoured lollipop. Wigan got those 3 storm players, Wire got Stephen Ratchford (a player all teams were after) and Brett and Joel and Chris Hill who a lot of teams were after. I would also like to think Trent was a big signing, although he hasn't been as big as we expected.

Saints really needed a PROP this year and got a second rower and they bought a fullback to play in the halves :s

The situation Saints now find themselves in reminds me a little of the Pies when Farrell left. Without his influence both on and off (admittedly more off due to injury) they went into freefall. I doubt that Saints will plumb the depths wigan got to, but I still think they have a bit more falling in them.

Having said that, they'll make the playoffs and nobody will fancy playing them.

People who are disappointed with a lack of a replacement for James Graham (both in terms of hard hitting prop and as a leader of the team) - I think from the outside it is quite easy to point to the James Graham loss and his loss was always going to affect us definitely (nobody is denying it), but I think the problem lies a little deeper than that. At the end of the day Saints this season have got enough territory and ball to win games; I think the main issues are a lack of cohesiveness and not being clinical in the final third.

People who question the addition of Lance - Lance has looked sharp really. In the games where he has played in the halves we have scored 30+ points, but when he hasn't had that influence there then we struggle with Lomax and Gaskell.

Laffranchi use out of position - Laffranchi has been our second best player IMO behind Soliola, so he may well be being played out of position but his performances are suggesting otherwise. Laffranchi just needs some extra support in the front row, so if we can get Perry and LMS helping him and TP out then we will look far better.

Too much reliance on youngsters (all of whom appear to have second season syndrome) - possibly, but there's nothing that can be done about that at this stage. There is always going to be a point where you have to at some stage rely on the youngsters. I think Warrington will be going through something similar soon due to the age of some of your players, but the main difference will be that it won't be in the key positions. It's definitely poor planning and as we don't know what goes on it's hard to proportion any blame to anybody.

The fear that a team without Roby is a losing team - it certainly doesn't help that Roby is injured, but we have enough quality to be able to still win matches. Roby is possibly one of the most influential players in the league and his loss is always going to be felt, but Royce isn't great tactically and it showed here as it shows that he just didn't have a plan B.

I just cling onto the notion that sport is cyclical and within the next 70 years we'll be better than you.

Most of you will be dead, but I'll be on here like Rogues giving your children and grand children hell over our superiority.

Maybe it's just me but I think the decline of Saints has been grossly overstated. Any side losing some of their greatest players ever (Sculthorpe, Long, Cunningham, Pryce, Graham) will always take a long time to get back to those lofty heights; however, at the same time, people can't knock consistently competing at the highest level.

Take the football as an example: this season United could end up winning nothing, Liverpool will end the season with at least one trophy. Will we get Liverpool fans talking about United declining? About how their fans are measuring success incorrectly because they now measure competing as being successful, instead of actually winning? I doubt it, because most Liverpool fans know United have been the second best side in Europe over the past five years and they've been the best side in England over the past five years.

For me, in a sport like RL where a salary cap exists, for a side like St Helens to consistently reach finals and the latter stages of a competition, shows immense consistency and great quality. They may well have struggled in the GF over the years, but I'd rather be declining and competing in GFs than being 'the benchmark' and not playing in the apparent only game that matters.

This season, I haven't seen enough of them to say how bad they've become, but I imagine things will turn around for them eventually, the year is early and I still remember our start under Lowes being turned around into a Challenge Cup win. A side like Saints, however much we like to 'bait' them, shouldn't be ruled out so early.

No bud I went to birchwood, left in 2000

Nathan Brown has signed a 3 year deal at Saints apparently for 2013 onwards.