Well, I said all along that I rate Westwood, I just think his indiscretions let him down big time...

As for the salary debate?....You really reckon they'll be earning much more than Westwood??....

Hock JJB Clough

Are you seriously suggesting that:

a) Hock's discilpline is better than Westwood's?; and

b) Clough is as good as Westwood?

Ben Westwood always used to have a positive impact on most Warrington games but to me this positive impact is getting less and less, his overall performances used to outweigh those silly pens he gives away for things like messing around at the play of the ball and the high shots but i wouldn`t say thats the case in recent times.

Whats happened to the block busting runs especially when he used to appear out wide for tries in a similar way to what Louis Anderson has been doing, Westwood used to appear on the left side of attack but that role seems to be Louis Andersons now, he doesn`t look as effective appearing on the right side of attack, he`s a less skilful version of Gareth Hock and doesn`t have anywhere near the same impact, he will always give 101% but i`m not so sure how effective he really is at present.

Spot on

The past few years I'm sure Westwood has been play right side of the attack? Briers, Westwood, Gleeson/Bridge Hicks. Scored many a try form a crash ball from Briers.

Newton no, JJB possibly, Wilkin yes

Yeah, I thought BW has spent most of his time at second row on the right since Logan Swann left. Only a guess but I reckon that Westwood gives away most of his penalties early in a game. Stats could prove me wrong but i get the impression he is giving it the "Your not gonna want to run at me are you?"
He has done a decent job of giving Lee Briers some protection down that side. Briers tried to put him onto a crash ball but he knocked on, One of those things. He could quite easily have scored one of his trademark reaching for the line tries. I think we are keeping things tighter now. I know Martin Gleeson has took a bit of stick recently but he would have created additional space for Briers and Westwood to exploit.

higham is a one trick pony,can you please tell how many tricks do all the other hookers have in sl ,go through the teams you will find none .diskin no trick ,roby one trick ,alker no trick shall i go on ,

Extremely harsh that, yes he sometimes does come flying in but on the whole his tackling technique is excellent, puting his whole body into the collision and generally just getting stuck in. For the amount of work Benny gets through in a game and the amount he is involved in the game, he is going to give away a few penalties, wish he would clean up the way he gets off the tackle at the play the ball though.

Yeh he has, i was referring to when we had Logan Swan on the right, in my opinion Ben Westwood was playing his best RL during that time which was on the left.

In 2005 he scored 13 tries from left side 2nd row and in 2007 he scored 12 tries, in 2007 he was all over the place position wise as he filled in at loose forward and left centre which is where he scored a hatrick against Huddersfield, again that was from his favoured left side which is where he also played at Wakefield.

I`m just saying that in my opinion we havn`t seen the best of Ben Westwood since he has been on the right, yeh he has picked up player of the year awards in recent times whilst on the right but lets face it that wasn`t hard to win given the competition he was up against which was a squad that was in the main full of non triers and under performers, Ben Westwood`s efforts stood out a mile but that doesn`t mean he was taking SL apart with non stop rampaging runs like he was doing back in 2005.

Quote ="Paul Youane"Are you seriously suggesting that: a) Hock's discilpline is better than Westwood's?; and '" this link says he has conceeded less penalties despite playin more games. Ironically wetwood has played less becaus he was banned for 6 games for ill disciplin www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009

Quote ="Paul Youane"Are you seriously suggesting that: a) Hock's discilpline is better than Westwood's?; and '" this link says he has conceeded less penalties despite playin more games. Ironically wetwood has played less becaus he was banned for 6 games for ill disciplin www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009

Quote ="Paul Youane"Are you seriously suggesting that b) Clough is as good as Westwood?'" this link says clough makes more yards per carry, more tacles misses less tackles makes less errors conceeds less penalties www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009

Quote ="Paul Youane"Are you seriously suggesting that b) Clough is as good as Westwood?'" this link says clough makes more yards per carry, more tacles misses less tackles makes less errors conceeds less penalties www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009

Actually Rob, just to pull you on a couple of things here:

In 2005 Ben had just moved from centre and played quite a few games at loose, some at prop, a couple at centre and some at the second row. Since he has had a secure position in the 2nd row he has attacked the right, alongside Briers and Gleeson.

He's had a ropey few weeks for the first time in three years, WOW. I'm sure it'll all work itself out, he'll have a big game sooner rather than later and we'll all talk about him positively again. He's a machine, simple as. His best position is right second row, this left thing is a no-no, he looked ropey on the left.

He runs good lines off Briers, he runs good lines for teammates too, he comes through as a dummy runner and attracts defenders that's created space for Gleeson and now Bridge and i'm sure every single one of his teammates appreciate his contribution because if there's a hard yard to be made, he'll make it.

Quote ="RyanWire" Quote ="Paul Youane"Are you seriously suggesting that b) Clough is as good as Westwood?'" this link says clough makes more yards per carry, more tacles misses less tackles makes less errors conceeds less penalties www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009'" '" Andy Gregory once said something about statistics and clipboards, but the exact quote escapes me. I'm pretty sure it was "I don't need someone with a clipboard to tell me who's played well and who hasn't when I've just watched the game for myself".

Quote ="RyanWire" Quote ="Paul Youane"Are you seriously suggesting that b) Clough is as good as Westwood?'" this link says clough makes more yards per carry, more tacles misses less tackles makes less errors conceeds less penalties www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009'" '" Andy Gregory once said something about statistics and clipboards, but the exact quote escapes me. I'm pretty sure it was "I don't need someone with a clipboard to tell me who's played well and who hasn't when I've just watched the game for myself".

Quote ="RyanWire"this link says he has conceeded less penalties despite playin more games. Ironically wetwood has played less becaus he was banned for 6 games for ill disciplin www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009'" Why do people look at stats in isolation? Westwwood has played two-thirds the amount of games, yet has made more tackles. The likelihood is you will concede penalties when defending, it is the law of averages.

Quote ="RyanWire"this link says he has conceeded less penalties despite playin more games. Ironically wetwood has played less becaus he was banned for 6 games for ill disciplin www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009'" Why do people look at stats in isolation? Westwwood has played two-thirds the amount of games, yet has made more tackles. The likelihood is you will concede penalties when defending, it is the law of averages.

I like Ben Westwood and what he offers to the team but I think people get on his back due to the fact the penalities he gives away are generally needless.

He does all the hard work for us, is often top of the tackle count and hit ups for us and i do agree that will often lead to giving away some penalities.

However to pull at a leg when rolling away, lie on top for too long, put hands in at the play the ball and give good field position away is extremely frustrating. Once Ben has cut these penalities out of his game there is nothing to stop him becoming one of the best second rowers in the league.

I see what you are getting at but i don't believe that is true in BW case as the penalties are generally for stupidity, for instance lying on a player too long when dealing with a tight up ref and purposeful swinging arms.

Can't fault his enthusiasm though

Having been the original critic of Westwood on this thread, I'd just like to point out that the above quote is my thoughts exactly.

It's just so damn frustrating that at EVERY match, you know that he is going to do one of the described infringements, thus my description of him as 'brainless'.

I fully accept that if he sorts this out we have a potentially great second rower....at the moment we have a bit of a liability.

Rather have a one trick Pony than a no trick piggy. As for Westwood, he's not in his very best form at the moment, but he'll come again soon.

i didnt look in isolation if you look at the penalties per tackle made westwood is higher so to answer the original question yes i do expect you to believe that his discipline is worse than hocks

if he commits more fouls then his discipline is worse. its what it says on the tin.

we need to remember Benny's old tackling technique, which imo has improved massively. He is mr 110% which no one can knock. I feel as the team slowly progresses benny may find he is too much a loose cannon for the team.
As for the number 9 i feel he is good for 2 things. a) a slow ball and b) a flat ball. for me a hooker runs the line and gives the ball to the right man, leaving the defence guessing his move until the very last second. Clarke has not shown any qualities for me. we have far a better hooker on the bench in Higham, who changes our game immensly when he comes on. Clarke will always have a space in the widnes team while Cullen is there!

I rate BW highly ok every player has little dip in form now and again,but it does not make him a bad player overnight. The one area of his game which imo he could work on is off loading in tackle.