What period pre-Super League are we talking about here? Ever since the introduction of the international transfer ban the northern hemisphere drifted further and further behind the Aussies (and in truth the Kiwis). The closest most competitive series against the Aussies for years was the one just after Gleeson signed for us.

Nobody remembers when PNG beat GB pre-Super League as that doesn't fit the argument.

As for expansion, risky business but if you stay still you will end up going backwards. London has now started to produce some very good "home" produced players now and South Wales is a potential hotbed of talent which I'm sure we'll all have reasons to be thankful of in the next couple/few years.

Expansion??....It's a tricky subject.

Put simply, expansion equals potentially more money, but with it, the very soul of the game will be killed.

Do people really want fancy away trips to all parts of Europe, where the athmosphere will be non-existant, instead of local derbies involving us, Wigan and Saints??

Think of that electric athmosphere you get each week at the Stoop, and that's precisely what you will have EVERY week.

The mistake most Rugby League fans make is this idea that we have some fantastic product that people can't help but fall in love with...I'm sorry, but to most neutrals our game is unfathomable, and most neutral folk, if given a choice, will actually opt for Union, not due to malice, but simply because to the majority of people, Rugby Union IS Rugby.

I actually enjoy both codes, and being a Warringtonian, will always prefer the 13-a-side game, but even I have to admit that during our 'Magic' weekend, the best game of club rugby I saw on TV was the game between Cardiff and Leicester in the Heineken Cup....If I thought that, then I'm afraid I know what most neutrals (and these are the folks we think we can convert) will have thought too.

I agree expansion has its place, but in the quest to find new supporters, we have to be careful not to alienate those who already love our game.

Cumbria should really have a SL franchise, but there is no way on earth a joint franchise would occur. Hstorical, tribal rivalries don't disappear overnight.

Harlequins are a difficult one, how would you define success? They have made a final appearance more recently than us. Crowds, not great but this is where I really feel for them, they are competing in a sporting pantheon, there must be at least a dozen, if not more football league sides playing at the same time, how do you compete against that?

My definition of them being a success is developing the ability to be identified as a club within a community, I think that will come from having a sustained period of locally produced players who form the core of their team. In McCarthy-Scarisbrook I really believe they have a potrential media darling. If they maintain their current ethos, which under Brian Mac I think they will, it could be the catalyst they have been searching for.

In theory, they should have the biggest crowds in the league....Do you ever see a time this will happen?....

Why? Less than twelve months before the club was bankrupt. 'licenses' were given out to provide stability and opportunity to grow in a sustainable environment. Not a environment for a new owner coming into a team which has no record for stability or growth.

Aaaannd, they didn't even get to the Grand Final!

Jeeeeeezzzzzz



Er ever heard of going too far to sustain things?
Three words 'Cup, England, world'

[size=75sorry for loads of my posts as i catch up, will just edit instead from now on[/size

Maybe have an Eastern sl & Western sl, i.e. ten teams each league & then some kind of playoff between the two leagues

I think the biggest success is France, the Catalans have sparked an interest in the country where the likes of tolouse have a stage to play in , hopefully it will generate more RL clubs in France to compete and sustain at a higher level eventually creating a league of it's own. If it goes to plan i suppose in 5 to 10 years this will be reality.

Celtic are being written off this year but with local talent commin through it may spark the Welsh into doing the same but again very long term.

I can see what the RFL have tried in edinburgh, if anywhere in Scotland the city itself has the finantial potential to create a team which in say 5 years could push for super league status but again as mentioned Scotland is a RU stronghold as far as the game is concerned.

Short term we will all have to go throught the pain of expansion until these countries can develop a sustainable league of their own which me feels is doubtfull.

Edinburgh RU get average gates of about 4600, and this is a club which has been going since 1872. And we think league will never take off in London!

Hearts and Hibs the football teams are permanently skint, they average about 16000 odd and 14000 odd which is crazy for the national sport in the capital city.

If these sporting clubs can't get any serious attendances or attract serious sponsorship then RL is just going to die on its booty, there is no hope there. If there was anything to be tapped into then football or RU would have found it by now.

Toulouse on the other hand, is one of the most affluent cities in France, it has a lot of money because of the aerospace industry. They also have a great tradition of junior rugby, Stade Toulousain have provided more capped French RU players than any other club, and Toulouse Olympique RL have the best junior set up of any league club in France.

If there's a new club coming into SL at the time of the next licences its going to be Toulouse.

The two main things for me concerning this are :

1) increasing the number of games isn't an option if you want healthy teams & space for the cup & internationals.

2) There isn't enough talent around to produce 14 competetive teams & quality coaching staff.

So any new team would have to be at the expense of an existing one. The only way to increase the league to 15 teams would be to restrict the playoffs to a straight knock out. That would free a week for an additional round.

Regarding expansion or heartland (head says heartland, waist favours expansion), as long as they are sustainable then great. Widnes & Oldham dissapeared up their own s financially & have yet to recover, and a second French team in their traditional areas could work. I'd love to see a Cumbrian team in SL.

Arsenal
Chelsea
Fulham
West Ham United
Tottenham Hotspur
Charlton Athletic
Crystal Palace
Queens Park Rangers
Leyton Orient
Millwall
Barnet
Brentford
Dagenham & Redbridge
Bromley
Fisher Athletic
Hampton & Richmond Borough
Hayes & Yeading United
Welling United
AFC Wimbledon
Carshalton Athletic
Harrow Borough
Hendon
A.F.C. Hornchurch
Sutton United
Wealdstone
Tooting & Mitcham United
Enfield Town
Hillingdon Borough
Ilford
Leyton
Molesey
Northwood
Redbridge
Thamesmead Town
Waltham Forest
Wingate and Finchley
Corinthian-Casuals
Cray Wanderers
Croydon Athletic
Dulwich Hamlet
Kingstonian
Metropolitan Police F.C.

most kicking off at 15:00 on Saturday, same time as most of quins games

the london broncos got to wembley in 1999. they came runner up in super league in 1997. if branson hadn't pulled out, they would, i feel be further on in their development. branson pulling out was a huge loss for the club, and rugby league in general. this set them back years, and they are probably still recovering from it. despite that, they have more kids playing rugby league in london schools than ever before, the university on their doorstep has won the busa championship 3 out of the last 10 years and the amount of londoners in the quins side at present is as large as it ever has been. the crowds of 4k will grow again. i have been at the stoop when over 11k were watching them play, and they will be able to get these numbers again. these things don't happen over night, and are cyclical. rugby league in london is healthy, and quins will be challengers again, and with a team of mainly southern englishmen

Paul Cullen summed up the Cumbria thing very well on Boots n All last night - he said it's all very well the fans and media keep on saying Cumbria should have a SL club but really Cumbria needs to decide itself does it want one and is it able to put one together. Celtic got off their backsides and with the help of a wealthy owner worked their way up into a position where they had a viable licence application. That's what someone in Cumbria needs to do - however the towns are so small and the population spread over such a large area, I'm doubtful one could really succeed.

As for no. of clubs in SL, someone asked why was it limited to 14 - it wasn't. The RFL have said there is no limit on it, just they decided on 14 this time round based on what funding was available and so as not to risk diluting quality too much - two more Celtics would not be helping competition much. But next time round, they may consider going to 15 or even 16. Then we'd probably go down the NRL route - not playing everyone twice and/or having byes.

I think in part you are dead right SEB, but I think it needs to be in collaboration with a will from the RFL to want a club there too. The RFL clearly wanted a club in South Wales for strategic reasons and moved heaven an earth to achieve it, even to the detriment of traditional clubs. There just doesnt seem to be a will to repeat this in Cumbria. Remember Workington Town competed in SL in the first season but did not benefit from the new immunity from relegation or the 3 year franchise support. They did register 2 wins however, which I feel may be more than Celtic Crusaders will.

Other than granting their licence application, to what extent did the RFL move heaven and earth to help achieve a club in South Wales?

Hillingdon Borough
Ilford
Leyton
Molesey
Northwood
Redbridge
Thamesmead Town
Waltham Forest
Wingate and Finchley
Corinthian-Casuals
Cray Wanderers
Croydon Athletic
Dulwich Hamlet
Kingstonian
Metropolitan Police F.C.

Like these pull in the punters away from Quins!

Yeah right it holds 12,000 we could have the magic week instead of weekend!

for every person who goes and watches them, its another person not going to quins. but, also for every person who goes to b&q, or does whatever else at the same time, or with the same money they would use for quins, its the same scenario

I like to think of myself as an expansionist. At club level I fell that London Skolars have a better chance of expanding the game in the South East than Harlequins do. The Skolars have the ability to grow naturally and build a supporter base over time rather than the genetically modified version that is Harlequins.
RL has missed out over the last few years with the poundings we have taken by Australia in international terms. Other major sports have not performed on the international stage, (Ashes in 2005 and RU World cup in 2003 and Olympics in 200icon_cool.gif but apart from those years a tri nations series win would have been massive for RL in 2004,6,7. Just imagine a GB or England team of the year in the BBC awards or Peacock as BBC sports personality if we would have beat the Aussies and Kiwis in one of those years. England need to win a 2 or 3 tri nations to enable the game to be more widely recognised. My only fear with this one is where will the open top bus parade be held. It wont be London so will it be Huddersfield, or Wigan.

The RFL are heading in the right direction with Celtic, Catalan, Tolouse and the Edinburgh thing is the right area to Target. Glasgow, to some extent is a closed shop when it comes to sport just like London is. This is harsh but a team in Edinburgh will force more money out of SKY than a team in West Cumbria. This is a trade off between people through the turnstyles and broadcast money from SKy.

I reckon..

1. Millenium Magic in Cardiff to showcase the sport.

2. The previous SL roadshow games in South Wales to raise awareness.

3. Introducing a franchise system, and extending the league, to provide for a Welsh entrant and to sustain such a club through its early vunerabilities.

To be fair though:

1 - came about largely because Cardiff City Council and the Millenium Stadium wanted something to replace the lost Challenge Cup and numerous football events that took place there when Wembley was closed.

2. There has also been roadshow games in other places, such as Leicester and Edinburgh.

3. The license system (it's not franchises) provides for anyone to make an entry, not just Welsh.

Whilst I'm sure 1 & 2 helped the Welsh out, I very much doubt that that was in any way the driver for that decision. Using that argument, it could be suggested that the Challenge Cup final was taken to Cardiff for the same reason which I doubt.

As for 3, there are many reasons why we have a franchise system. Again, I'd be very surprised if bringing the Welsh in was a determinative factor. It should also be noted that the system protects all clubs in precisely the same way it protects the Welsh. Had we had this system when Halfiax imploded, they, as a heartland club, would have been afforded the same protection.

As a result I don't think the RFL have bent over backwards to help the Welsh out. No doubt they've assisted, but not to the detriment of a heartland club. It's not as if those clubs who lost out had particularly enticing applications with the possible execption of widnes.

A fair reply and I am sure we could debate at length. On the "enticing application" front, although conjecture, I am not convinced that the Celtic bid had little more to it other than "being in Wales" and was no stronger than bids from Widnes or Leigh. This is where I believe their inclusion has been to the detriment of a heartland club in existance since the 1870's and a skewed assessment criteria applied.