Whoa just a minute. We had George King and Ryan Bailey as the interchange forwards. With Sam Wilde in the 2nd row. Smith signed the contracts for all three.

In hindsight we had no chance with a poor back and Evans and Russell in the 3/4.

It was the Wigan bench that did us in that final, rolling props on and off every 15 minutes. Ryan Bailey - say no more.

I was pointing out a fact, specifically in relation to the GF, not defending TS. If you remember Dodds was injured from the start of the season. Ben Harrison was out as well. G King squad number 18 and Wilde squad number27 if memory serves, so hardly intended to be first choice.

Yeah I know. Ben Harrison was on-loan at Wakefield IIRC. Dodds injury was months and months before and no steps taken to replace. (ie. deregister and sign replacement)

Injuries are part and parcel of the game. We did not have an adequate squad.

2017 and 2016 were the most disappointing seasons I've seem in SL from Warrington.
The highlight in those two seasons was Sandow's 80 min dg vs Salford.
That just about sums that period for me.
Good riddance to it.

However...lovin JC.

I think if you de registered mid season the full salary would count on the SC I can’t see Dodds agreeing to no payment just because he was injured.
My point however was we did well to be in the GF despite all those issues.

I don't....the season was pants and we got lucky. I've never been more disappointed in a season than 2016.

But we still finished top and made two major finals even with this weak side. Which says something about TS ability to get the best out of a mediocre squad, even if you put the blame for the decline in the quality of the squad on him.

Name me one other coach in SL who would have made major finals with the squad we had in 2016...?

It just was disappointing regardless of the finals.
The standard of rugby that year was so poor...no coincidence Wire Wire and Saints all struggled the season after when lower teams made modest recruitment.

2016 wasn't as bad as you are making out surley? The LLS and a match saving tackle on Currie denying Wire the CC (with my P&B specs on, we were the better team that day) and it's a successful season.

Yeah we didn't and SL standards were poor ......blah de blah

By position and finals debut it was pound for pound arguably the greatest season for TS.
....but my point is I can't remember such a disappointing season than 2016.
It's like we never earned anything and it's like without the Sandow early season form, we'd have struggled.
It's not easy for me to give an argument when the stats prove greatness...but inside you know everything that year was flawed and just wrong. It's like peeing in the wind, you might not see it but your covered in it!
....and it's like something inside was telling me 2017 is going to be trouble unless we buy 2 props.

I don't think we can take much comfort from beating the following to get to Wembley.

Oldham (Away)
Widnes (Home)
Wakefile (Neutral Venue)

Fair play beating Saints at home in the SL SF.

Saints too were poor too. Not such a big thing really.

An interesting philosophical divide between those who think the team did well to get where it did (greater than the sum of its parts)., and those who see only failure. I do think that season almost broke Hill.

100% agree (apart from 2016 being the greatest season for TS - I'd go 2012

).

2016 was definitely the most disappointing season. 5th & 6th in the league following our spine being ripped out and rebuilt, having never quite got over the line for the Big One, Sandow, Gidley + co brought some optimism that there was some light at the end of the tunnel, the transition seasons were coming to an end, and we were once again going to be competitive.

I would have been less disappointed with a LLS and 2 semi defeats. But to get the LLS, and be in both finals, losing to Hull by a matter of inches, and against a poor Wigan side, was the most galling.

The earlier GF's, particularly 2012, while disappointing, you knew we'd be capable of getting back there soon.

In 2016, as you rightly say - inside you knew everything that year was flawed - there were too many papered over cracks. Walking back from OT through an empty Stretford, listening to the fireworks, I knew that was a bang or bust game. We would be in for more pain before we could consider getting close to that again.

Good analogy.
Like 2016 was trying to syphon off the remnants of the home brew without disturbing the dregs at the bottom, successfully not getting those dregs, but you can see the drink is getting cloudier and the taste is bitter, not sweet ...knowing if you didn't brew a new barrel in 2017 for the next glass, you're only gonna get sediment no matter how much you try a filter every drop.

It's interesting as on this forum last year 2016 was cited as "successful" due to the LLS and Finals (usually on Smith Out threads). But I think "did well with what it had" is probably fair and it seems collective views are coming round to that.

Given the backdrop to 2018 I would call a Top 4 finish successful for this year. I was expecting mid table.

I think Smiths best season was 2011, we should have won SL that year. Winning 22 of 27 games and scoring 220 points more than the closest rival. We were head and shoulders the best team that year.

Couldn't have described my own feelings any better... For me, as much as I was thankful for what Smith had done for us, this was the moment of clarity in the 'Smith can do no wrong' giddiness. He'd had a good run, but had clearly taken us as far as he could and I felt that we were just never going top get that monkey off our back without a whole new era under a different regime.

I think its reasonable to criticise Smith for his recruitment up to that point, if you are taking the view of "did well with what he had available", as he signed it all.

But given the comments here about the general standard of SL being so poor by 2016 it begs the question, what could anybody have done in terms of recruitment, there was just a general downturn in quality.

In fact, perhaps TS had assembled the best squad in SL by 2016?

Which clubs in 2016 had stronger squads than us? The only one I can think of is Leeds who were completely garbage that year.
Anybody else?

Dunno really how you can answer other than Leeds and Hull. It was pretty much a season where so many teams had lists of injured players and teams were beating teams and no form lines could be took...
Eddie took glee from saying that the middle 8s and salary cap have worked....not me it was just one shat season.
TS reluctance to recruit big after 2016 and not have to foresight to see Sandow wasn't coming back. Who honesty was naive enough to think he was...oh yes I just said who!

Are we forgetting this supposed 2nd best squad in SL contained the likes of ...

Russell
George King
Rhys Evans
Laithwaite
Wilde
Cox
Wheeler
Ormsby
Bailey

We end up playing Gidley (signed as full back) in the halves. Russell (signed as winger) at Full back.

One thing that stands out that a squad of 33 is rediculously large to fit under a cap. What with paying Gidley a kings randsom, Clark, Hill and Lineham on good money no wonder we packed up the rest of the side with dross.

He made a pigs ear of the recruitment alright.

So who do you think had better squads than us in 2016?

The whole of SL was struggling to recruit at this time, which is why we finished top.

Unless your view is that Warrington were unique in assembling a crap squad, but due to TS genius in polishing turds, he achieved one of the great all time feats of coaching by getting this useless lot to top the league ahead of rivals who had recruited much more effectively.

LOL. I think we can safely say that TS could not polish turds, he signed enough and tried and tried.

2016 was largely due to Sandow and the lack of competition. A blip in a downward trend as the quality of our side ebbed away. The squad was large but low on quality in key positions. Broadly the same squad in 2017 less Sandow and the Smith/Agar partnership was found out.

I am just relieved that, in Price, we have managed to rebuild sufficiently to get into the Top 4 to stem the damage.

This was a better squad.

Sam Tomkins
Josh Charnley
Anthony Gelling
Dan Sarginson
Dom Manfredi
George Williams
Matty Smith
Dom Crosby
Michael McIlorum
Ben Flower
Joel Tomkins
Liam Farrell
Sean O’Loughlin
John Bateman
Tony Clubb
Sam Powell
Lee Mossop
Wigan Warriors Fans
Taulima Tautai
Oliver Gildart
Ryan Sutton
Lewis Tierney

This was a better squad


1 Zak Hardaker
2 Tom Briscoe
3 Kallum Watkins
4 Joel Moon
5 Ryan Hall
6 Danny McGuire
7 Rob Burrow
8 Keith Galloway
9 Beau Falloon
10 Adam Cuthbertson
11 Jamie Jones-Buchanan
12 Carl Ablett
13 Stevie Ward
14 Liam Sutcliffe
15 Brett Delaney
16 Brad Singleton
17 Mitch Garbutt
18 Jimmy Keinhorst
19 Mitch Achurch
20 Anthony Mullally
21 Josh Walters
22 Ash Handley
23 Ashton Golding

Erm, so TS was a genius and could indeed polish pooh? Or have I misunderstood your point in listing at least 2 better squads?