You may of course be right about whether Toronto will be here five years time then again you might not but either way does that necessarily prove your point about it being fair to Barrow or anyone else?

I'd like the game be stronger generally and if that includes a new ambitious player whether that is an resurgent Barrow or shiny new Toronto then we should be open to ideas, we can't stay as we are surely?

I'm not sure about how things will work from a practical POV but I'll you what wouldn't be fair and that is asking for new ways to move the game on and then placing restrictions on someone's ambition at the outset....join in but for goodness sake don't have the financial wherewithal (they are self funded aren't they?) to put a decent team together that might attract SL level support you will have to stick around the lower leagues for a bit before you've earned the right for top flight sport

If rl was going to be a genuine success in Barrow fev Whitehaven,Cumbria etc then it would have happened by now, they have not made it to superleague and look nowhere near getting here anytime soon,

We can blame the rfl or a new team with ambition and support, but rls biggest downfall is the apathy of a lot of supporters, not turning out in numbers and supporting their club, not being in superleague is not a reason to turn up and support your club, fans are the bread n butter of most clubs who don't have a millionaire backer. If these clubs had been receiving the local support then sponsorship will naturally follow adding to the coffers allowing for a genuine push for promotion. As a by product the lower leagues would be a lot better and we would have more British lads featuring in super league. But it's not happened and is unlikely to.

It would be good in 10-20 years there's a SL UK SL Canada SL France SL??? And have our own wcc champions league type tournament since the Australians cannot really be bothered about it tho I do feel for rl in France and other country's to really grow they must look to having their own full time professional leagues. Inclusion in ours is going to give exposure but what if vancouver quebec etc want in...

London has been a major success, just not at pro level!

We can say exactly the same thing about London.

It's not apathy it's just that people prefer to do other things than watch RL. We need to face facts - RL just isn't that popular. Probably about 120K people who watch live in the North any given weekend. I think some people on here think not going to the game is like missing out on the Beatles reforming or something.

London has been a success to an extent and for it to progress sustainably a club must emerge organically and not be shoe horned into super league just because it's in London.

A few hundred extra fans every home game would be huge for a lot of clubs outside of super league.

And if rugby league has gone as far as it can then looking abroad is the next option anyway,

It's funny that if successfull toronto could draw more viewing figures than all of the UK clubs in the future....

Playing Devil's Advocate should Toronto not do the same?

It should, and it is, isn't it?

Exactly.

These clubs have been around for well over a century and are still and always will be small lower league clubs because cannot entice investors and fans because their populations are tiny.

And i can say the same for SL clubs. Wigan laud themsleves as "the biggest club in rugby league" yet they get about 15000 fans and share that ground with a football team who are smalltime in their sport but are ones who call the shots in that town. This is hardly the minerals of 120+ years of building a giant club whose atendances burst at the seams and are a club with a big worldwide profile is it? Wigan are still just a parochial little sports club from a little town. And what does that say for the rest of us?

Our sport is crying out for the likes of Canada to have a league to match the NRL because the mighty clubs of Northern England aren't anywhere near making SL that! and it's about time our parochial little mindsets realised this n'all. This is, i reckon, the last real opportunity to push this sport to a wider scale and get ourselves out of this rut we've been in for a few deacades. If we don't go all out for this as a sport we are destined to just be the Gaelic football of England - no profile outside of a few little Northern towns.

To continue the philosophical discussion - what would be wrong with this? A small passionately supported sport, where players are local and approachable, still affordable to the common man with manageable wage bills? Or do we need to follow the way of football?

Exactly i see no problem with being a well supported regional sport. Hurling, Gaelic football and afl don't waste their time and money constantly trying to be something they're not and never will be. The major finals of all of those sports draw huge crowds everytime. Ramp up what we have to make our major events top drawer, couldnt give a monkeys how much more exposure union gets as long as what we get to see of our game is passionate, exciting and good quality.

In all honesty it is only in the last 20 or so years where Rugby League has realised it is a stand alone business that has to make a profit to survive. For many years clubs were treated as glorified social clubs for chairmen & their cronies in the belief that local working men would turn out to support their club on matchdays. Alternative entertainment wasn't considered a threat to attendances until it was too late & seven day working is also stopping people from turning out.

Frankly, I don't see why we should allow the game to be played outside the heartlands. We have a gem of a game that is a joy to watch, so why should we share it with other regions and countries ? It cannot be beyond the wit of the RFL legal eagles to simply patent the game and prevent it being played elsewhere.

And here is another idea - why do we allow the game to be sold to Sky. People now simply refuse to get off their sofas and come down to the ground. It seems obvious to me that the only reason our attendance are falling are due to Sky TV. Drop the television rights, increase attendances and get the fans back to the sport. Now I realise that we will get a bit less cash, but what is wrong with paying the players a bit less and getting them to take part time jobs. It works in the Championship, and if clubs like York, Salford, Bradford are struggling financially it's clearly due to poor management and they don't deserve to play the game in their area.

Back in the 1950's Warrington were getting big big crowds. In places like Leigh and Huddersfield the teams were drafted mainly from the mining community where the lads would go down the pit in the morning and then play a game in the afternoon - Saturday afternoon by the way, not Thursday night. What happened to that golden era and why do we always have to make changes rather than staying the way we were.

Brilliant ideas!!

The other thing that could help boost crowds is to stop playing the sport for five or six years, you know like they had to during WW2. The sport's starved post war crowds were at their peak in the late 1940's early 50's and we as a club were on top form then? Halcyon days indeed

With this in mind am I the only one heartened by Donald Trump as the President elect and leader of the free world? His appointment of Mad Dog what's his Face as Defence Secretary is a master stroke. Our cousins from across the pond are doing their bit, so come on Boris never mind Brexit, give Mad Dog a call, kick it off big style let's get RL back on it's feet

It would be more useful to the discussion if you addressed the "Why" question rather than being facetious. Paint me inaccurately as a "traditionalists stuck in the mud type" if you wish. I am happy for RL to be played on the moon if people want that, I just don't want to see another failed top tier expansion attempt (London, Paris, Gateshead).

I am assuming you have a well reasoned opinion on matters expansion (rather than just blindly following the rhetoric) so let's try again and see if you could answer "Why does the RL feel it is so important to have the game of RL played in as many locations as possible, whereas other comparable minority sports governing bodies do not - and what is the penalty of the "do nothing" option"

There is no 'do nothing option'. Never has been. From a biological pov you would not be here reading this if our genes did not constantly mutate and produce different adaptions that were suitable for our changing climatic and environmental conditions. From an intellectual pov all businesses have to adapt constantly to change - newspaper print is dying out (Daily Mail lost 12% advertising revenue last year) and is moving to the web. Tesco lost market share to low cost rivals because they were too slow to respond to change in buying habits. Even the most rigid institutions based on dogma have to change and adapt to new social environment, so the church now allows women bishops and is rather more tolerant towards homosexuality. Black cabs are peed off because of a new ap that allows anyone to call a taxi, my dad is disgusted to learn that he will not be able to use cheques in the near future, islamic extremists are a major threat in our cities and Russia is once again threatening the West with military action in Europe. Everything is in constant flux and the speed at which change happens is increasing rapidly.

It's ironic that Rugby Union (in this country) has had an inferior product to league for many years. What they have done however, is to expand across the world and build a strong international competition that brings in millions of pounds ( 4 home internationals at 80, 000 crowd each and ?? £30 min ticket price). That means the sport is very well funded to provide for youth development, increased advertising, increased international development, recruitment of RL stars etc. They are slowly squeezing RL out. Unless we do something similar we will be back to semi-professional rugby, which means lower standards of rugby league and a diminishing number of kids playing the game and supporters watching it. Toronto being successful is a tall order, but every chance we have to spread the game, showcase it and publicise it, is a valuable opportunity. It will be a long spiral of decline if we do nothing.

Do you know why three of our top overseas players have just decided to quit Super League without explanation over the past few weeks? That's the "do nothing" option.

You might be onto something there. Alternatively we could declare independence for the M62 region and opt out of the UK, thereby avoiding world war 3 and conscription. RL would be the only sport played around the world and we would be cashed up from the TV rights. I reckon all the taxes we would save could fund a much better NHS and we could re-open many of the clog factories that have been cruelly closed down. We would have to stop immigration as most Londoners will be heading up here, but I reckon a big wall north of Watford Gap should do it.

It's funny, but when you think about it there are some really simple solutions to many of the problems we face. It's just amazing that nobody has ever tried them before.

Winslade dear boy, i believe you have discovered the real reason for HS2 & 3. 2030 & Rugby League will be the national sport & super fast railways will be needed to bring fans from the south to watch their favourite teams along the M62 corridor.

If the current trend continues there will be about eight clubs in a decade's time who can afford to run and the rest will be part time. Super League needs more investment for it and its clubs to be able to run as a league properly. We won't be able to do that if we become a sport that is just for the heartlands because the lack of exposure will not bring in the sponsors or investors.

We can't just have round robins of Leeds Wigan Wire Hull and Saints with a few plucky others who've just about managed to not go under going round and round a load of times a season.

The whole sport outside Australia needs a fresh injection and a Canadian team, then a few Canadian teams, then a Canadian league could be it.

Quote ="headhunter"Do you know why three of our top overseas players have just decided to quit Super League without explanation over the past few weeks? That's the "do nothing" option.'" OK. So your theory we need expansion to Toronto, to increase the wealth in the game so we can recruit and retain Australian talent? I thought it may be related to the GBP:AUD exchange rate plummeting 30% in the last 12 months www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from= ... UD&view=2Y

Quote ="headhunter"Do you know why three of our top overseas players have just decided to quit Super League without explanation over the past few weeks? That's the "do nothing" option.'" OK. So your theory we need expansion to Toronto, to increase the wealth in the game so we can recruit and retain Australian talent? I thought it may be related to the GBP:AUD exchange rate plummeting 30% in the last 12 months www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from= ... UD&view=2Y

Thank you for the reply. The biological change is a good analogy. Small, individual, mutations causing successful heritable characteristics to be aggregated across successive generations. That's all good. Change is good. I get that.

But the argument seems diminished to "do nothing and wither" or "start a new RL team 3,400 miles away as this must be good, and if you don't agree you are a luddite". Is there not a less risky, more prudent method of introducing change and creating growth? After all the RFL has an exquisite record of failing to create a SL club even 34 miles outside of the traditional heartlands in 35 years of trying the "plant the lone seed approach".

On a point of clarity, RU had a hugely successful international game for as long as I can remember, which as a 44 year old, is back to the time when they were an amateur sport. The 4 nations started in 1883 then grew into 5 nations in the amateur period. The 5 nations was massive before and upto 1995 and the switch to professionalism. So this sort of questions the rationale that only a hard nosed commercial, professional organisation, can create a successful sport. Furthermore this expansion was based on the success of stand-alone, federated, national leagues in each of the nations. Not the implanting of a side in a non RU playing nation into the Aviva Rugby Premiership and hoping for the best. The international competition they have now is because of the strength of the game in the nations that are represented. Ground up.

Anyway, good debate. I think we all want what is best for the game to thrive and grow. Time will tell.

Quote ="Wires71"OK. So your theory we need expansion to Toronto, to increase the wealth in the game so we can recruit and retain Australian talent? I thought it may be related to the GBP:AUD exchange rate plummeting 30% in the last 12 months www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from= ... UD&view=2Y'" Or because the NRL salary cap is over twice as big as Super League, because the NRL has a billion dollar TV deal, because the sport there is not confined to obscure, culturally irrelevant little towns in forgotten parts of the country like it is in the UK. Half the Super League clubs are struggling to spend up to the cap as it is FFS. I suggest you do some research about the whole Toronto thing BTW, based on your posts in this thread it seems like you know little if anything about it.

Quote ="Wires71"OK. So your theory we need expansion to Toronto, to increase the wealth in the game so we can recruit and retain Australian talent? I thought it may be related to the GBP:AUD exchange rate plummeting 30% in the last 12 months www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from= ... UD&view=2Y'" Or because the NRL salary cap is over twice as big as Super League, because the NRL has a billion dollar TV deal, because the sport there is not confined to obscure, culturally irrelevant little towns in forgotten parts of the country like it is in the UK. Half the Super League clubs are struggling to spend up to the cap as it is FFS. I suggest you do some research about the whole Toronto thing BTW, based on your posts in this thread it seems like you know little if anything about it.

Some interesting posts on here. I am with psych casual and believe he makes some very good points. Unsure if it is mentioned else but don't loose sight of the de risking at play here in that Toronto are not being shoehorned straight into SuperLeague but will take min of 2 years to go there, thus allowing our game to either takeoff, show signs of taking off or be a disaster. Should the game go down well I think everyone is in agreement in that the typical Canadian sports will be interested by the physical side of the game and as long as they don't make us play it on ice like some of their other sports then all good . Comments such as we don't need change are very shortsighted and pressumably from members that enjoyed the traditional biff and less commercial side of the game but no matter what sport or business if you are not looking forward and taking some risks then you are destined for failure.

I agree the sport is confined to obscure irrelevant little towns (with the exception of Leeds, Manchester, Hull). But this is not because of choice, it's because RL is not a mainstream sport in the UK. It is far being Football, Cricket, RU. The game is just not that popular. I don't understand what the disconnect here is on understanding that? So genuinely, what is the overarching plan for the game's expansion to have teams from all over the world competing in an international Super league?

NRL is different in that it is the number 1 winter sport in certain areas of Australia. It's very popular. Like Football here. Did they achieve that by implanting a team 3,400 miles away or is there some other reason?

You are right I have not investigated the Toronto plans in any great detail and am basing my view on 1) the leadership capabilities of the RFL 2) Past experiences. 3) Common sense.

I must admit I liked the biff of the 80's game. However, I don't fit your model as I started and exited a lucrative tech business and appeared on a BBC2 TV show in the process. I am not sure what commercial aspect of RL there is to enjoy? Anyhow I have never once advocated that we do not need change. The game is stale and boring now, the question is what change is needed.