Brains and composure. Both were missing on Saturday. Until we have a player who possesses the first and instills the second we will struggle in the big games.

I would also add in leadership because there will always be games or spells in games where brains and composure are in short supply. Players like Morley are not ten a penny they are all too rare but how much of a difference would a player like him make to any team more so than a Briers for me

This is why i created this thread. There are "types" of big game players. The Morley's who will lead you into batlle or the magician's who will win you a game from nothing. We have neither and it was clear on Saturday that the players we would turn to, Ratch, Hill, Roberts just don't have it. They are good players in their own right, but you look at the game against st helens where ratch tried to snatch a dg on the 4th rather than set up an easier chance, or Roberts missing his attempts.

Sandow was probably the last one and he was obviously a crack pot.

I understand their are only a number of these players in existence, so rather than trying to make one out of a player who just hasn't got it, we maybe need to address our style.

Caveat - if any of the above win us the gf I'll HAPPILY show my on the town hall steps!

I disagree on Ratchford/Bridge/Myler/O'Brien...the reason we ended up with Kevin Brown and Roberts (via Sandow) was that these guys weren't able to do it. As regards recruitment and planning post-Briers, TS had a plan - it was Myler and Ratchford who were seen as the hot young 7 and 6 talent around, and we picked them up young and gave them time to bed in while Briers was still here. Had they been better it would have looked like perfect planning, but whilst they are decent players, they weren't halfbacks that could win you a big game. Same with O'Brien. Sandow could, but had other issues.



Sure but another definition of insanity is swapping Roberts for Patton and expecting a different result.

Then we'll agree to disagree, SC

Didn't duckie come up with a stat, regarding the Ratchford/Bridge partnership. When we used it, it worked to great effect, resulting in plenty of wins.

Myler was always a "one man band". Looking for the odd flash of genius, and always backing up play (that's how he got a lot of his tries, see Sean Long)

Ratchford played (iirc) a fair bit of his early days as centre. He certainly played it for Salford.

GO'B was never the answer (despite all his efforts) but is still better than what we've currently got

Replace Patton for Roberts? Why not? Let's die trying something different. If it doesn't, you can say I told you so. There's no point in Patton making smalltalk to the bloke next to him on the bench, whilst the game is on, and Roberts is wobbling around the pitch, chewing gum, trying to look [ithe cool kid[/i.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Brown Roberts ain't working

Why not Patton/Roberts...after wembley id be dropping Brown before Roberts. Are we completely giving up on Morgan Smith? Answer or not i expected more minutes from him this season.

Don't forget in Morley's day we had two very good inter changeable front rows ....Morley ,Monaghan, Hill & Wood ,Higham & Carvell, plus up & coming Mike Cooper.

Those two only played in the halves for six games (in 2014), and we won all of them. Myler was out of the side at the time, can't remember if he had an injury.

The Ratchford-Bridge partnership was ended when O'Brien came in to the side, and Ratchford moved to loose forward and then centre. Bridge moved back to centre when Myler came back in and we finished the season with Myler and O'Brien, which was broadly the partnership for 2015 apart from a spell mid-season when Patton came in.

Slightly off topic but to pick up on this Lefty quote:



It does seem a tad strange that a pro rugby player is chewing gum while playing a game? Not only does it look nonchalant for the fans and spectators but it surely must impede performance? Have you ever tried doing any sort of cardio-vascular exercise whilst chewing gum? Seriously, send the guy back asap and give Patton a run.

He REALLY isn't interested.
It's obvious (to 99%of us) that he [i couldn't give one[/i

I know the halves could have done better but i think part of the problem is the lack of threat in the second row.
Jack hughes gets a 9 out of 10 in defence most weeks but if an attack gets anywhere near him it grinds to a halt, is that him or Roberts. livett didnt look right or out of his depth on saturday.
It would be a fair bet to say that some of the last words that Price said before the players left the dressing room was to build pressure and control the first 5-10 sets of six.
I have thought for a while that when we are put under any form of pressure we panic and individuals start to play the hero and solve problems on their own. I dont think that the playing group as a whole is inferior to Catalan or Castleford and maybe Wigan but averthing goes out of the window when a team puts pressure on us.
Just one glaring example of this was Catalans first try. Goodwin races out of the line at 45 degrees to shut down Mead from getting out of dummy half but we had 4 players (Brown, Goodwin,Livett and Lineham) against Mead, Jullien and Tierney.
He is an international centre who tried to solve something that shouldnt have been a problem. That is either pure panic, lack of trust or wanting to be a hero. That is just one of a dozen examples from saturday. Each player needs to be smarter if we are going to go to the next level.

I don't think we have the current players able to go to the next level. The one's you expect to, can't.

One aspect of our attacking play that needs addressing is the utilisation of Livett.

At the moment he is being used as little more than a battering ram, yet the lad is second only to Ben Currie in terms of skill amongst the forwards. Whether that is down to the inadequatecy of our halves or playing to instruction I do 't know but we are missing out on a potent weapon.

Livett to stand-off, Thompson to back row?

Yes Livett had a few belting games earlier in the season (Leeds away I remember), where he had a dynamic running game. He has offered very little since then for whatever reason. In fact both our 2nd row are a problem in attack.

Watching the tv coverage, the team looked disinterested from the start, was plain to see there was some th wrong..to be in a final and not give it your best is shocking

Livett was possibly the poorest player at Wembley but he is better than that. I think he was off because of his return from injury.
It would been harsh on Harvey but I'd had gone with Pomeroy in the final.
Big games ALWAYS find out who's injured and/or not 100% fit.

....and I'm sure Harvey is feeling a lot worse after his poor showing at Wembley than he would if he'd have been left out for not being 100%.

Pomeroy was not in the 19 man squad.

Wasn't he?...ok I thought
Atkins was 18th man.
Pomeroy was 19th man.
After Sika was banned.
Pomeroy was in his kit training on the pitch along with Atkins.

....but regardless it means nothing because I said "I'd" have played him.

Atkins was 18th man, Pomeroy 19th. I have no doubt that both will get their chance against Hull FC on Thursday. Westwood has been playing on one leg for a while and BMM looked to have sustained some damage. I can't see either managing a short turnaround and no doubt there are others carrying knocks.

I'm a big fan of Livett, miaw. I just think that we're currently stifling him, by playing him too close to the action. We ARE using him as a battering ram, in the same way we employed Waterhouse, a few years back. Get him almost on the shoulder of his centre, and push the centre and winger to the extremities. Livett needs room for HIS game to flourish. He's too much of an asset to just use him as a yard maker. Get some decent ball to him, and he'll devastate defences, like he did v Leeds, and even when he played stand off, before he got that big injury, last year.

In a year's time, a second row partnership of him and Currie will be devestating.

Going back to big game players, we've now lost 5 finals on the trot. Saints lost 5 GFs on the bounce with players like Long, Wellens, Cunningham and Graham appearing in most and some quality players appearing in more than a couple. Those first four I've named would be considered big game players/winners. In finals sometimes you just need the bounce of the ball and a bit of luck....are we being a bit harsh considering we've been close in all our lost finals bar the injury ridden Wigan final? We'll get some luck soon (but quality half backs would help speed that along).

Quite.

I think it’s time to be starting Philbin over Hill now

Whoa! That's a [ibig[/i call! I love Philbin but I think a lot of his impact comes from running at players who are starting to blow.