I don't understand your point really? Saints can spend up to the cap and there aren't many clubs paying transfer fees at the moment.

Saddened, they are missing you over on the Wigan forum. They send their regards.

I didn't mean capital (although the stadium and paying Royce off won't have been cheap)

I meant the tools; the making up of the team (Players, first and foremost, are not up to scratch. The Roby tea tray joke is so funny because it is so true. Plus the backroom staff looks shaky and the chairman and board are in no man's land with transfers)

2005- Daniel Anderson in charge
Getting transfers such as Lyon from Australia
A spine of Cunnigham, Long, Wellens etc
Good, exciting youth coming through
Good pack
Confidence

The pieces have been falling apart one by one. With out one of those things the chances of success drop dramatically. Saints have, arguably, lost ALL of them.

Royce wasn't the problem. Potter wasn't the problem 2 years ago and when Cunngham and his shadow eventually fail, it won't be their fault.

I never thought I'd say it but Saints are well and truly on the decline.

And they'll probably go and beat us twice this year...

No doubt. After I said that. I actually spent a couple of mins just looking at that sentence. The wounds haven't healed and I don't want to jinx it.

I reckon Lyon is the best ever overseas signing in the Super League era, but in all sports when a player comes back for a second term at a club where he's a legend it is usually an anti-climax. I wonder if Saints are in danger of going for the nostalgia route by getting in Keiron Cunningham on the coaching staff and bringing back Lyon.

Nathan Brown would be a good choice for Saints coach, if he's willing to stay in England, you have to take your hat off to him for the job he has done at Huddersfield, top drawer coach. When he was in the NRL with St George Illawarra Dragons I thought the jury was out on Brown, the Dragons were always the nearly men despite having a lot of internationals and Origin players on their roster, but in fairness to Brown he was a very young guy thrown into coaching with no apprenticeship and he's had to learn on the job and fair play to him he seems to be a good quality coach now. I think if he was St Helens coach they would win trophies.

Bit surprised with this Jamie Lyon thing...is he not doing very well in Oz because he isn't good enough ,in which case would he benefit Saints ,& i am a bit surprised that he would want to come with the recent talk of a salary cap increase in Oz.

Jamie Lyon won a Grand Final and is in Manly's first team. He is playing well. They might be willing to let him go as he is 29 and they've got young players like Cherry-Evans who is on a low salary at the moment and his agent has apparently demanded a deal to match Chris Sandow's, which is meant to be eight times more lucrative. They also have other younger players who they want to tie down to contract extensions. So they have a choice, lose a very highly rated Australian international half back (How many of those are there) or lose some other players. Lyon is a player on a good contract who would accept a move if Saints could offer an appropriate deal.

When are these cap increases coming in? They have been talked about for a while, but they don't seem to be vacuuming up the talent like they supposed to and a few clubs are struggling to keep all their current players.

Jamie Lyon is still top drawer, but which of the superb Saints youngsters that just keep rolling off the Saint Helens production line year after year will make way for him....??

Wheeler Lomax Gaskill......? or are you getting rid of your big money buy Shenton..?

anyway its very very funny

i agree coach can only play with the team he's got! btw are you the mark stringer i went to school with (culcheth)

Lyon's still class but not the same speed as he had before he returned to Oz - he'd score and set up tries in SL but not tear other sides apart like he did. He also wouldn't be in a side with Long, Sculthorpe and Cunningham.

I also think that at the top end of SL the current crop of British outside backs is far superior to what was around during Lyon's first stay.

Write saints off at your peril.

Some of the comments on here are laughable at best.

Yeah they are struggling a bit at the moment but to say they are in decline is ridiculous. They have lost two great players over the last year or so and havent replaced them YET.

I think this is the first time I've made someone's sig.

It would be annoying if my cheeky comment became a truth, wouldn't it?

As a point, if saints finnish lower than third I would be proven right.

Be proud

Oh I am. I think most woild agree. Do you not agree that saints have declined over recent seasons?

I don't think we are in decline really because if you look at our team on paper it's still a top 4/5 team definitely. Atm we are just lacking confidence and guidance - it's evident in our current position.

I'd say we are in a period of stagnation as opposed to a decline, growth has stunted through poor recruitment meaning that we've had to put young players into key positions - especially the backs. Once the younger players develop and mature (or we make some good signings) I'd say we'll be back challenging for honours.

A fresh approach by new staff maybe just what the team needs.

How many of these 'Saints in decline' claimants had tipped Saints for a huge season?

They were widely tipped in the media as likely to finish in positions 1 or 2.

They have hugely underperformed this year and Simmons has paid the price for that, but with the exception of the (admittedly huge) loss of Graham, you could argue that on paper the team is stronger than the team who only just missed out on being champions last year.

I think this season will be a write off, as Rush and Cunningham don't have the experience to get the side challenging for trophies, but with an experienced coach at the helm (and one who is able to decide upon his best team) they'll be in as good a position as any to challenge for silverware.

I would certainly agree that saints (on their day) can beat any team and probably should, team and personel availabke, be in every competuition to win.

However you raise an interesting point. 3 years ago it was between leeds and sts for first and then two years ago a dramatic win at cas won you second in the league, last year you settled for third and this year people are hoping for 4/5 place. I'd argue that is textbook decline.

If we take trophies, saints haven't won one in... 3 years is it? Seems like decline from the 2005 era.

I don't want to give the impression that I'm taking saints lightly, as much as I joke about them struggling to make the 8, but they haven't improved in years and, on paper, have gotten worse.

It could be transition or maybe other teams have gotten better and saints have made mistakes but they look weaker this year than last and than the one before.

As I said above: we still have a good team on paper; we are just lacking guidance and confidence.

In fairness, there's only one way you can go from the season in 2006. We won the lot, and would probably have added the Grand National, Boat Race and X Factor had we bothered to enter them.

For us to truly have declined, I'd say we'd have to go from a team that can challenge for trophies to one which cannot. While I fear that our abysmal start to the season, and lack of experienced coaching staff, makes it unlikely we'll challenge this year, I think the true test is whether we are back in the mix next year. If we are still struggling to make an impact on the competition, I'll concede it's a decline.

A one season blip doesn't make a decline, just as a one off trophy win doesn't herald the start of an era.

You say it yourself though: other teams have got better and that's why we have gone trophy-less since 2008. The likes of Warrington, Wigan, Huddersfield and Catalans are now amongst the top clubs; it's no longer just Saints and Leeds or Saints and Bradford, so that added competition has made it difficult to maintain a top two league spot. I don't think that league position is evidence of a decline as such, but more evidence of the league (at the top) becoming closer.

It's not all bad though as we have the likes of Gaskell (not ready yet), Lomax (played out of position), Makinson (best of the lot) and Wheeler (development stunted through constant injury) all coming through establishing themselves as first team players - that's why we aren't in decline and are in a state of stagnation IMO. They've been thrown in the deep-end and it paid of last year as their enthusiasm got us all the way to the GF, yet a run of poor performances and their confidence is shattered this season.

I'd be willing to argue all day with any idiot who suggests that a team with a half-back partnership of Gaskell/Loma/Holidayhiho (perm any 2 from the 3) is better than one with Pryce/Eastmond as half-backs.

You think Eastmond and Pryce were our halfbacks last year?

Oh sorry my mistake I thought Pryce and Eastmond were both St Helens players last season.