There's loads of people calling for these 'community sentences' now, making them rebuild the damage etc - do you really think they are going to do that? If you put them on the streets and say rebuild this or do some work they will just laugh in your face and tell you to f off and do more damage. Who's going to make them do it? The police can't control them and the probation service is being cut dramatically so that restricts the courts ability to give out community sentences.

In reality what you will see is a few high profile cases going to prison for a long time, and the police will make sure these are publicised, but the vast majority of the looters will get off with no real punishment because the courts know there is no capacity in the justice system. Even before this, Ken Clarke was trying to cut prison numbers and get people out of the system because the Ministry of Justice got one of the toughest spending deals out of the Treasury.

I blame the teachers.

Or, failing that, Jon Clarke.

no, no, i was going to comment on this thread, go on about the double standards that exist in this country, this board etc. but i'll just bite my tongue.

people should have a good chat with themselves before suggesting bringing the army onto the streets! shooting these "rioters" etc.

no, i couldn't keep it in!

Considering this board represents a team from a historically very working class sport, located in a working class northern town, I regularly find the views expressed to be shockingly right wing.

i agree, it makes me cringe sometimes!

If you withdraw their benefits then what do you think these people are going to do for money ?

They are going to turn to crime, probably robbing your house as well as your neighbours so that they have some money in their pockets.

These rioters and looters obviously have very few morals, its them turning to crime which has lead to parts of the UK looking like a war zone.

Wandsworth council have started evicting all tenants involved in the riots

Then they will end up on the streets where the Riots started in the first place!!!

Correct, hence my point above that if you stop their benefits then they are going to commit crime to get money. How do the goverment expect them to eat and survive with no money ? Its obvious what they are going to do so that they can survive.

Don't get me wrong here, i aint sticking up for them as i can't stand the murdering little scrotes, its just obvious whats going to happen if you take their money and houses away, they will commit crime and probably start squating in peoples houses that are unoccupied and for sale by breaking in and turning them into a right dump.

Nothing long term will be done about the people who had loot or smashed up some bulidings etc etc.Its a Pr a stunt by Dave Cameron to make himself and his party look good.I read in paper one looter was sentenced for 6 months for pinching a bottle of wine,now a kiddy fiddler who downloads a load flith.Dosnt get a sentence like that,when in reality he should be looking at a long strech at HMP.It just smacks of desperation what this government is doing.

Not sure of your point.....Most working class people are right wing, in the sense that they have an old fashioned racism ingrained in them.

Go to any 'working class' social club, where there will undoubtedly be a lack of 'foreigners', and talk of 'blacks' and 'pakis' will be viewed as acceptable.

Just go back not so long ago, and recall the treatment handed out to black players, and it makes a mockery of any idea that the working class are not right wing to a certain extent.

You're right, though I would argue that it is a lack of deterrents that is the problem.....Sentences, like the ones being handed out, are simply laughable.

Most of those who are being charged, will find 6 weeks in our hotels that masquerade as prisons, absolutely no change from the lifestyle that they currently lead....Mixing with other scum, whilst having a few hours on the PS3...



I hate to sound draconian, but some form of corporal punishment needs to return to schools and to society in order to serve as the deterrent...We have to reverse the present situation, where supposed authority figures, like teachers and policemen, are expected to sit back and allow rowdy, trouble-making individuals to stomp around causing havoc, with no fear of any punishment.

rubbish! times have changed. being right wing does not make you racist, extreme right wing politics maybe. but your sweeping generalisation is kinda what i was on about in the first place!

I agree....I apologise for my hotch-potch attempt at explaining my point.....



What I'm trying to say (I think), is that this whole left and right wing thing is all a little pointless.....In a traditional Labour area like Warrington, where left wing support should be the norm, things are not always so clear cut.....Yes, many like the idea of the all for one, one for all mentality, but in the nitty gritty of real life, people often succumb to simple human nature and emotions.

Supposed 'right wing' views such as those expressed on here are, rightly or wrongly, that human nature at work.

I have right wing views on some subjects and left wing on others what does that make me, the current government?

nature or nurture? that's the debate that truly clouds the issue, peoples nature should be to look at why groups of people behave in a certain way rather than make statements like "shoot" them or make them homeless.

honest!

We reap what we sow!
It's all the lefty, liberal wooly hatted tree huggers, that have caused most of the problems we're seeing on the streets, human bloody rights! over protective social workers, "poor Johnny's had such a hard time growing up in broken home, lets send him on an all inclusive holiday to Rhyl" sick to the back teeth of it all, the sooner we get some respect back in to our society and discipline back in to our schools the better, and I vill do votever it takes to achieve zis, today Ingland tomorrow ze verld.

Few mentions of prisons being like hotels: did nobody watch that series about Strangeways the other month?

I don't think I'd choose to go there on holiday.

All depends on the category.

I think people underestimate the extent to which its nature.

If people think they can get away with something, a good proportion of them will. You see it in the banking sector, people quite willing to chase greed and risk huge sums of other peoples money. You see it in the press, people willing to use whatever underhand tactics to profit from other peoples tragedy for a story. You see it in politicians, people willing to claim and fiddle expenses to scam money out of the taxpayer. And when word gets out that you can go on the rob and not get caught by the police some people will naturally go for it as well.

However there are always people willing to make excuses for those who come from lower income groups because they say its because of poverty or unemployment etc that makes them behave like that. So what about bankers, press and politicians is it because they weren't paid enough (well the MPs did try that one, I remember hearing them say they fiddled expenses because their basic salary was too low and they should be paid more!).

The vast majority of people on low incomes in the country did not riot and so to blame it on poverty or social exclusion (although those are problems that need addressing) is missing the point, you can't make excuses for people.

Having said that I do think people on higher incomes or in higher positions in society do expect to get away with more because of who they were - David Laws being a classic example (the guy who was Chief Secretary to the Treasury for about 3 weeks before being sacked for falsely claiming taxpayers money to pay his rent to his partner. At the time loads of other politicians jumped to his defence saying "he's a millionaire, he doesn't need the money, this wasn't done maliciously" but that is a bull argument, Laws should have been jailed for that just like any ordinary person would have done if they had claimed housing benefit while in a relationship with their landlord.

The bottom line for me is that people need to fear the consequences of breaking the law or doing something improper.

Agreed.

And I have no right wing views

I don't think poverty is the reason these riots kicked off for one minute as most of them were kitted out in new clothes and had blackberrys.

But there are a lack of jobs and oppurtunities out there for youngsters, a few months ago I got a phone call from the dole to see if I could give a lad a chance, he could only do 3 days a week due to going to college so I asked if they had someone else to do the other 2 days so I took 2 lads on, both were fantastic lads and I paid one out of my own pocket to do the extra 3 days as I was subbying to a company, having been layed off I had to lay these 2 lads off in May and both of them since haven't been able to get a job doing anything, not even factory minimum wage work.

I'm gutted for them as I would love to take them on and give them a chance but there isn't any help from the chamber/government in doing so, there used to be and you have to pay now for them to go to college, they can't go to college without a placement and if they lose their placement they have 2 weeks to find another or they are off their course.

One lad was 23 and one 21 from poor areas in St Helens (Earlestown and Thatto Heath), top top lads with great attitudes, always on time, willing to work (very long hours)and not for the best money, one even offered to work for free if he could get on at college, now these lads can't get jobs so what chance do they have in getting their own house in a few years? Car? they can't even go out for a few beers on a weekend but they don't get down about it, they don't kick up a fuss or do anything criminal.

I blame the mindset of the 'communites' were these riots happened, with their chips on their shoulders and the 'f**k the police' attitude, not all youngsters are like that on the news.

The government needs to nuture the younger generation as they are the future but there must be proper punishment handed out to those who stray, there must be achievable career paths for all.

At the minute a lot of University grads can't gain employment in their fields of expertise, you can't get on at college to learn a trade without a placement but nobody is taking on anyway.

I'm so glad I'm not just leaving school now or I would be fecked.

Quote ="sally cinnamon"I think people underestimate the extent to which its nature. If people think they can get away with something, a good proportion of them will. You see it in the banking sector, people quite willing to chase greed and risk huge sums of other peoples money. You see it in the press, people willing to use whatever underhand tactics to profit from other peoples tragedy for a story. You see it in politicians, people willing to claim and fiddle expenses to scam money out of the taxpayer. And when word gets out that you can go on the rob and not get caught by the police some people will naturally go for it as well. However there are always people willing to make excuses for those who come from lower income groups because they say its because of poverty or unemployment etc that makes them behave like that. So what about bankers, press and politicians is it because they weren't paid enough (well the MPs did try that one, I remember hearing them say they fiddled expenses because their basic salary was too low and they should be paid more!). The vast majority of people on low incomes in the country did not riot and so to blame it on poverty or social exclusion (although those are problems that need addressing) is missing the point, you can't make excuses for people. Having said that I do think people on higher incomes or in higher positions in society do expect to get away with more because of who they were - David Laws being a classic example (the guy who was Chief Secretary to the Treasury for about 3 weeks before being sacked for falsely claiming taxpayers money to pay his rent to his partner. At the time loads of other politicians jumped to his defence saying "he's a millionaire, he doesn't need the money, this wasn't done maliciously" but that is a bull argument, Laws should have been jailed for that just like any ordinary person would have done if they had claimed housing benefit while in a relationship with their landlord. The bottom line for me is that people need to fear the consequences of breaking the law or doing something improper.'" all well and good but the level of knee jerk reaction on her makes me bawk, i am not making excuses for peoples behaviour however social inbalance does need to be addressed. is it a coincidence that every "riot" in my lifetime have been in times of social austerity/ high unemployment? i think not. people, what ever age or social standing behave in a certain ways when they think they're being treated as mugs by politicians. i'm not saying it's right but it does happen. just because you've got nice clothes and a blackberry doesn't mean you can become disafected or feel you've got no future. the only good thing to come out of times like these is good political music, people however must feel strongly in the first place to write it.....ie. they are angry about issues. now i'm the first to admit a lot of the copycat "riots" were all to do with greed, but doesn't that reflect a belief that "the have nots" are getting a raw deal (or at least believe they are) from people in power who abuse the system with the knowledge that unless a newspaper uncovers it (expenses scandal/ off shore tax havens) that in most cases they will get away with it without even the threat of jail! www.thebradentontimes.com/news/2 ... in_street/

Quote ="sally cinnamon"I think people underestimate the extent to which its nature. If people think they can get away with something, a good proportion of them will. You see it in the banking sector, people quite willing to chase greed and risk huge sums of other peoples money. You see it in the press, people willing to use whatever underhand tactics to profit from other peoples tragedy for a story. You see it in politicians, people willing to claim and fiddle expenses to scam money out of the taxpayer. And when word gets out that you can go on the rob and not get caught by the police some people will naturally go for it as well. However there are always people willing to make excuses for those who come from lower income groups because they say its because of poverty or unemployment etc that makes them behave like that. So what about bankers, press and politicians is it because they weren't paid enough (well the MPs did try that one, I remember hearing them say they fiddled expenses because their basic salary was too low and they should be paid more!). The vast majority of people on low incomes in the country did not riot and so to blame it on poverty or social exclusion (although those are problems that need addressing) is missing the point, you can't make excuses for people. Having said that I do think people on higher incomes or in higher positions in society do expect to get away with more because of who they were - David Laws being a classic example (the guy who was Chief Secretary to the Treasury for about 3 weeks before being sacked for falsely claiming taxpayers money to pay his rent to his partner. At the time loads of other politicians jumped to his defence saying "he's a millionaire, he doesn't need the money, this wasn't done maliciously" but that is a bull argument, Laws should have been jailed for that just like any ordinary person would have done if they had claimed housing benefit while in a relationship with their landlord. The bottom line for me is that people need to fear the consequences of breaking the law or doing something improper.'" all well and good but the level of knee jerk reaction on her makes me bawk, i am not making excuses for peoples behaviour however social inbalance does need to be addressed. is it a coincidence that every "riot" in my lifetime have been in times of social austerity/ high unemployment? i think not. people, what ever age or social standing behave in a certain ways when they think they're being treated as mugs by politicians. i'm not saying it's right but it does happen. just because you've got nice clothes and a blackberry doesn't mean you can become disafected or feel you've got no future. the only good thing to come out of times like these is good political music, people however must feel strongly in the first place to write it.....ie. they are angry about issues. now i'm the first to admit a lot of the copycat "riots" were all to do with greed, but doesn't that reflect a belief that "the have nots" are getting a raw deal (or at least believe they are) from people in power who abuse the system with the knowledge that unless a newspaper uncovers it (expenses scandal/ off shore tax havens) that in most cases they will get away with it without even the threat of jail! www.thebradentontimes.com/news/2 ... in_street/

1 comment from a rioter, although misguided in who it was aimed at, kind of hit the spot for me. Asked why she looted a corner shop she said, 'well it's OK because he was rich' Obviously he was probably no richer than anybody in regular employment but she had reacted because she felt that the have/have not divide was unfair. Now there will always be a divide. Always. But the gulf appears to be getting wider. Abhorrent money for sportsmen is the extreme I guess. Failing Bankers making millions in a corrupt system is another. I was travelling through Knutsford 1 day last week and there's a McLaren showroom there! Now let's face it. This wouldn't be there if there was no demand.

We are going through some tough economic times but it 'seems' that not all of us are in this together. Oil and energy firms are still ripping consumers off despite making record profits in order to feed greedy shareholders (Yes I know that most of us have shares in pension schemes but the benefit to you or me versus the benefit to people or corporations that own tens or hundreds of millions is insignificant). And when more savings/cuts are being discussed, they are always aimed at sections of society that have bugger all to start with. There are no policies, or even debates, about taking more from the richer sections of our populas. George Osbourne has even hinted that he may reduce the top rate of tax for Christ sake! We hear nothing about taxing excessive bonuses or profits. Nothing. If we did, and if it really did 'appear' that we were all contributing to the current situation then maybe people in less privileged positions wouldn't feel angry about it. Although radical, what would be wrong with taxing at say 75% for the next 2 years? What about introducing a 'profits tax' aimed at corporations that are making extreme profits for a period of time? Or why can't some of these companies that are making obscene profits NOT pay a dividend this/next year and instead plough a similar amount of money into community projects? What about doubling inheritance tax for the next 5 years? We really should be looking at areas that may not be palatable but hey, we're in the aren't we? Aren't we.....

Now I don't condone the 'riots' as I believe that most of them were just copy cat exercises fueled by greed and peer pressure to a degree. What I do believe though is that we have created an environment where any flashpoint, and in this case it was the shooting of a black guy (Drug Dealer) in Tottenham, could spark a situation where people feel that they want to 'hit back'.