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| This thread is going to run and run and probably get a little bit "tetchy" ...........
Quote ="Wires71"Removal of final salary pensions for public sector workers (they will bleat but unlikely to move into private industry).'"
Quote ="The All New Chester Wire"[iNo party could get elected with that as a policy. It'll happen anyway as the liabilities of the schemes grow too big to handle[/i.'"
Public sector pension holders need to give the rest of the country a contributions break of about 5 years while still making their own contributions - either that or work longer like the rest of the country.
Quote ="The All New Chester Wire"(EDIT: Just checked the figures. There are 7 million people employed in the public sector out of a total electorate of 46 million. 7 x 100/46 = 15% of the electorate).'"
But - the 7m public sector employees are unlikely to all be singly's are they?
Accept that they have partners, dependents etc who could well be driven by the need to vote for the party that is going to continue giving them the gravy-train lifestyle that they enjoy .........
.......... using a rougher factor of 1.5 x 7m = 23% of the electorate depending on the public purse to fund their lifestyle. Would a turkey vote for Xmas??
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| The sad thing is that whoever wins this election will have won purely by default, on the basis that people's only reason for voting seems to be to stop the other guy from winning, rather than any actual POSITIVE policies.
The embarrassing thing for David Cameron is that this election is not yet a foregone conclusion for him, as he is taking on a government, that with 13 years in power, as simply run its natural course....Cameron should be an absolute shoe-in, similar to how Tony Blair was in 1997, where it was just a case of how big a landslide New Labour would acheive against John Major's demoralised bunch.
Yet Cameron is simply, in the eyes of many, unelectable.....His policies are non existent, and his cabinet in waiting is full of yes men, who are being deliberately cagey when faced with any awkward questions. Certainly, if the Tories have finally learnt one thing after 13 years in the shadows, it is that the only path back to power is the New Labour one, and that is one full of spin, gloss and lots of baby kissing.
As for Labour and Gordon Brown??....Well, even after a lifetime of voting for them, I find little inspiration to vote for them in a month's time. I believe they have done some good in their 13 years...Minimum wage, NI peace, and some fantastic investment in our schools being just some, but as I said earlier, I just feel they have run their natural shelf life, similar to the Tories in '97.
Sadly, I see little credible alternative....I actually could accept a period of Tory government if it had a half decent leader and promised some good for the country, but I fear that this present Tory bunch are a bunch of careerists, looking to look after their own, similar to Thatcher's nasty crew in the 80's.
As a prediction, I see Cameron sneaking home by 10-15 seats, in the lowest turnout on record...Brown will resign, and Alan Johnson will take over, caning Cameron on a weekly basis in PMQ's....
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| You are right the Tories have made an incredible job of not finishing Labour off. It would be like us going into the last 5 minutes of our Challenge Cup match against Featherstone, leading 12-10...people would be asking questions.
IMO if the Tories were going into this election with David Davis as leader and Ken Clarke as Shadow Chancellor they would have the election sewn up because even if they were being attacked by traditional Labour voters and Labour media, they would have the traditional Tory vote mobilised behind them and they'd have the City and business community onside as well. Cameron and Osborne's biggest problem isn't that their opponents are trying to paint them as out of touch Etonian Tory boys, its the fact that their own core support is so lukewarm towards them and the City isn't convinced. They have not had any coherent strategy or line of attack on Labour, they've been shifting their economic position from opposing Labour's interventionism during the recession and stressing the need for austerity measures, to saying that they would ring fence the NHS and increase spending on the military campaign in Afghanistan, then saying that Labour's 'efficiency savings' were a drop in the ocean, and now saying that those savings would finance reversing the 1% rise in NI. They now seem to have landed on this NI issue as being their main line of attack in the election campaign...but a 1% reverse is a minor policy detail not a headline campaigning point. They have not convinced anybody.
Cameron as well has made some embarrassing gaffes and looked out of his depth politically, when there was the story of Gordon Brown being alleged to be a bully, Cameron gave a news conference the next day saying "there has got to be a public inquiry on this"....which just made him look stupid because obviously there wasn't going to be a public inquiry and Cameron had to drop his call for an inquiry quietly else he'd look like nobody took any notice. Then when Stephen Byers and Geoff Hoon got stung into that cash for lobbying row, Cameron was at it again, demanding a public inquiry, again nobody took any notice.....these kind of elementary errors are embarassing and not something which a leader like David Davis, or in the past John Major, would have made.
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| who cares ? there all *******
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| Just remember, if you think its bad now under Labour, then it'll be worse under the Conservatives. Vote Lib Dem!
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| If you're an old tory, vote ukip, if you're an old labour supporter vote green.
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| To be honest I am agonising over the choice for the first time. The potential state of the economy freaks me out.
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| Quote ="Wires71"I'm looking forward to a nice 4 year stint of public spending cuts, slashing of waste/beaurocracy, more involvement of the private sector in the provision of pubic services and general austerity.
For me some headline policies would be :-
1. Postponement/scale down of Trident programme
2. Elimination of/(means tested) child allowance
3. Elimination of/(means tested) winter fuel allowance
4. =#FF0000Clamp down on incapacity benefit work dodgers
5. Complete military withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan
6. Reduction in breadth, increase in depth of NHS services to get it back to Aneurin Bevan's vision. (i.e gastric bands, fertility treatment, none health related cosmetic surgery etc).
7. Introduction of a fee to see a GP.
8. Increase in taxes on alcohol and fags.'"
The one in red has to be a priority....The screwing and cheating of the benefit system has gone on long enough..
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| Its clear to see that some people on here have a better grasp of politics than i, or the general guy on the street has. The problem i face, voting for the first time really, is that neither party seems to want to step forward and offer cast iron policies. Its almost like neither party wants to alienate themselves from the general public, thus creating a mirror party to the one currently in power. It really is frustrating. I'm tempted to go with the Tories, if anything just to see if a change is good for the country, but worry that if in doing so, we'd just be rocking the boat and destabilising a system, which although flawed, is actually working for us in a difficult climate. I really am in bind. I'm 27, recently married, recently made redundant, no kids, fairly decent lifestyle before the job loss, and seem to be looking at this opportunity for change with glazed eyes. Neither party seems to want to grow a set of balls, and give the country want it wants, what it needs. The concerning thing is, that people without a moral compass, and in a similar state to me, will vote for the BNP or similar.
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| Quote ="MikeyWire"The one in red has to be a priority....The screwing and cheating of the benefit system has gone on long enough..'"
Too true.
I know of someone who has a bad back and get's this benefit, has done for years. He is work shy.
Yet I know a girl with a broken spinal cord who requires a wheelchair yet holds down a good job in a customer contact centre.
This country is too soft on people who cannot be d to do a days work.
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| The way to vote is to look at your life and ask yourself what do i want from it and what is wrong with it ?
Then look at the society around you and ask what is right about it and what is wrong with it ?
Then look at the party that answers the most question in a positive way and vote.
Read key points in the manifesto (not necessary the whole thing) try to understand them and lastly F--king drag your arris to the polling station (it's only 5 minutes of your life).
If you're not interested in politics or find it boring, don't moan about not having money or the state of this country.
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| Quote ="Timmy the Koi"Its clear to see that some people on here have a better grasp of politics than i, or the general guy on the street has. The problem i face, voting for the first time really, is that neither party seems to want to step forward and offer cast iron policies. Its almost like neither party wants to alienate themselves from the general public, thus creating a mirror party to the one currently in power. It really is frustrating. I'm tempted to go with the Tories, if anything just to see if a change is good for the country, but worry that if in doing so, we'd just be rocking the boat and destabilising a system, which although flawed, is actually working for us in a difficult climate. I really am in bind. I'm 27, recently married, recently made redundant, no kids, fairly decent lifestyle before the job loss, and seem to be looking at this opportunity for change with glazed eyes. Neither party seems to want to grow a set of balls, and give the country want it wants, what it needs. The concerning thing is, that people without a moral compass, and in a similar state to me, will vote for the BNP or similar.'"
I think this is indicative of a very large group of people in this country, and to be honest these are the type of voters who should be straining at the leash, to vote in a fresh, inspired Tory party to an overwhelming landslide victory.
Embarrassingly for the Conservatives though, because their leader is an indecisive mess of a man, what should be a massive victory could instead be a humiliating close run thing, and instead of a feeling of elation, similar to what was acheived by Blair in '97, Cameron's 'win' will almost certainly feel like a massive anti-climax.
Blair, for all his obvious faults, was undoubtedly a consummate politician, with a massive personality....Cameron is a cheap, shabby imitation and will be out of his depth on a huge scale if elected.
As I said before, I could accept a Tory victory if they looked like a genuine alternative to the present tired lot, but all I see is a load of chancers, promising the world, but not actually explaining how they are going to perform their miracle.
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| Balls to policies (if they actually exist), this country needs to return the economy to an even keel. Changing the jockey at this point would be economical suicide.
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| Quote ="The Angry Pirate"I think this is indicative of a very large group of people in this country, and to be honest these are the type of voters who should be straining at the leash, to vote in a fresh, inspired Tory party to an overwhelming landslide victory.
Embarrassingly for the Conservatives though, because their leader is an indecisive mess of a man, what should be a massive victory could instead be a humiliating close run thing, and instead of a feeling of elation, similar to what was acheived by Blair in '97, Cameron's 'win' will almost certainly feel like a massive anti-climax.
Blair, for all his obvious faults, was undoubtedly a consummate politician, with a massive personality....Cameron is a cheap, shabby imitation and will be out of his depth on a huge scale if elected.
As I said before, I could accept a Tory victory if they looked like a genuine alternative to the present tired lot, but all I see is a load of chancers, promising the world, but not actually explaining how they are going to perform their miracle.'"
Exactly. I have feeling they'll just shade it, and agree with what you say. How hard can it be to find an enigmatic leader, and just get them to be a puppet for your policies. Jesus, get Boris Johnson with some policies behind him, i'd vote him in tomorrow. The worring thing is, is that Cameron is the best the Tories have come up with in years.
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| Quote ="getdownmonkeyman"Balls to policies (if they actually exist), this country needs to return the economy to an even keel. Changing the jockey at this point would be economical suicide.'"
Yep, this is what is making think twice...
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| Quote ="Timmy the Koi" The worring thing is, is that Cameron is the best the Tories have come up with in years.'"
Cameron is the closest thing the Tories have to Blair....After trying to take on Labour with supposed politicians (Hague, Duncan-Smith, Howard) and actual policies, they have basically given up the ghost and instead gone for their own Blair clone.
The leader's debates should be pretty eye opening, and hopefully Cameron can be exposed for the chancer he truly is.....Unfortunately, I don't see Brown coming out of the debates much better, simply because, in the public's eyes, he is a dead man walking.
In a parrallel universe, I'd have loved to have seen Cameron take on Blair in this election and these forthcoming debates...Blair would have chewed him up and spat him out.
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| Quote ="Peckerwood"Just remember, if you think its bad now under Labour, then it'll be worse under the Conservatives. Vote Lib Dem!'"
Problem is with the current system, if you vote lib dem you might as well vote for the party you dont want to be in. Vote labour one final time so they will hold a refurendum on the alternative vote. Then next time round voting for lib will actually mean something
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| Quote ="Monmouth Wire"This thread is going to run and run and probably get a little bit "tetchy" ...........
'"
I hope it stays as civilised as it currently is. There's quite a lot on here to debate but little nastiness yet.
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| Quote ="The All New Chester Wire"I hope it stays as civilised as it currently is. There's quite a lot on here to debate but little nastiness yet.'"
There shouldn't need to be any nastiness Graham. Been a very civilised debate so far, and shows that a lot of people are, unfortunately, in the same boat with regards to the wishy-washyness of the current parties.
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| Quote ="Wires71"Too true.
I know of someone who has a bad back and get's this benefit, has done for years. He is work shy.
Yet I know a girl with a broken spinal cord who requires a wheelchair yet holds down a good job in a customer contact centre.
This country is too soft on people who cannot be d to do a days work.'"
Do you [ireally[/i think the problem is as widespread as the Daily Mail makes out? Of course there are such people, and there are young girls who have a kid in order to get a house and benefits, and there are people who work and claim dole, but what proportion of claimants do they represent? I think it's a lot lower than received wisdom would make you believe. Attacking benefit scroungers is a classic Tory tactic to divert attention away from the results of their cutting taxes for the rich, slashing public services policies - mass unemployment, poverty and homelessness.
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| Quote ="Timmy the Koi"A lot of people are, unfortunately, in the same boat with regards to the wishy-washyness of the current parties.'"
I think that we are in the situation that it comes down to the basic philosophy of the parties and deep down I think Labour MPs want to do good for the whole of society through their interventions whereas the Tories think that individuals come first and that will create a better society. Both are trying to manage a system better than the other. I know which one is closer to my beliefs.
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| Quote ="Wire_Yed"If you're an old tory, vote ukip, if you're an old labour supporter vote green.'"
Old Labour can vote whatever Respect has become now.
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| Quote ="paw81"
Really we need this alternative voiting system brought in. That way voting Lib dem in tory/lab strongholds, or smaller parties anywhere isn't a total waist of time as it is under the current system'"
Although I will be praying for a Labour victory in the General Election, I would not mind a minority labour government with Lib Dem support as reform of the electoral system would surely follow. Knowing this country though, we'd then have about 100 UKIP MPs!
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| Quote ="getdownmonkeyman"Balls to policies (if they actually exist), this country needs to return the economy to an even keel. Changing the jockey at this point would be economical suicide.'"
Not if you get the right jockey. Were you opposed to the Warrington board getting rid of David Plange in 2002 because it might have risked the recovery?
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| David Cameron = Steve Anderson
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