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Quote ="Ian 77 Redux"I don't think this is about the standard of officiating, more the laws of the game.
It does not matter if the ball travels forward. RFL Laws, Section 10, Note 1:-
rflmedia.therfl.co.uk/docs/RFL%2 ... 202013.pdf
It's whether the ball is passed forward, not whether it has travelled forward. If Player A passes the ball backwards at the half way line, but because of momentum Player B catches it 1 metre past the half way line, it is not a forward pass. It looks like one, and we'd all be screaming for it, but it isn't. If the ball is passed backwards that is all that counts.
Now, is Scott is saying that momentum should be discounted, and it should only matter if it travels forward that's different. But we'll need to change the laws of the game, it's not about refereeing in my view.'"
Firstly, yes I am saying that it should only matter if it travels forward.
Everything about physics etc. is obviously correct, and I am intelligent enough to understand it all the poster who said otherwise.
The question mark is, we see some passes ruled forward that are nowhere near being forward. So obviously the physics of it don't come in to play when the refs are ruling those.
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Quote ="Ian 77 Redux"I don't think this is about the standard of officiating, more the laws of the game.
It does not matter if the ball travels forward. RFL Laws, Section 10, Note 1:-
rflmedia.therfl.co.uk/docs/RFL%2 ... 202013.pdf
It's whether the ball is passed forward, not whether it has travelled forward. If Player A passes the ball backwards at the half way line, but because of momentum Player B catches it 1 metre past the half way line, it is not a forward pass. It looks like one, and we'd all be screaming for it, but it isn't. If the ball is passed backwards that is all that counts.
Now, is Scott is saying that momentum should be discounted, and it should only matter if it travels forward that's different. But we'll need to change the laws of the game, it's not about refereeing in my view.'"
Firstly, yes I am saying that it should only matter if it travels forward.
Everything about physics etc. is obviously correct, and I am intelligent enough to understand it all the poster who said otherwise.
The question mark is, we see some passes ruled forward that are nowhere near being forward. So obviously the physics of it don't come in to play when the refs are ruling those.
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| Quote ="just_browny"I fear ScottHKR might be an idiot.'"
I fear you could be very childish keyboard warrior who doesn't have the intellect to put together a reasonable and intelligent response to what was a reasonable topic for debate imo, but instead respond with the type of rhetoric usually reserved for immature plonkers.
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| Quote ="Seventies red"I fear you could be very childish keyboard warrior who doesn't have the intellect to put together a reasonable and intelligent response to what was a reasonable topic for debate imo, but instead respond with the type of rhetoric usually reserved for immature plonkers.'"
Exactly what browny said, but slightly more subtle.
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| Quote ="Teessidewire"Exactly what browny said, but slightly more subtle.'"
He didn't give a reason as to why I am an idiot though?
Also, that is quite offensive, and shows the invisibility sitting behind a keyboard gives them.
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| A petition to improve refereeing standards? Really? How do you suggest the improvements would be made? More training, video and knowledge sessions? I have one idea, and I believe it is a decent opinion personally. If you don't like it, do it better yourself. If you go to the RFL website, you'll find an application pack to complete and officials course, on which, you will receive training and advice so you can go out on a Sunday morning come rain and shine to earn your stripes as an official, and work your way up the ladder. I'm sure the RFL would appreciate having more officials at thee disposal.
To me, officials are skilled and professional athletes, es they make mistakes, but only as many as a Morley, Tomkins or Roby. As long as the game is played and officiated by humans, their will be errors. Sport's been like this for hundreds of years, and survived, in my opinion, give the authority back to the professional officials and do away with the video/tmo/DRS etc. and let them use their ability to make decisions.
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| Can we have a petition to improve the standard of Super League? It is dire this season compared to what we had a few years back. The game is slow and dull and the excitement has gone out of many fixtures. There is a lack of real quality at the top teams, which isn't to say there are no good players, just it is not what it was. The Aussies or Kiwis are going to rip England to shreds in the World Cup.
So my petition is for the RFL to do something about that, and not mickey mouse gestures like splitting the league up or whatever. The sport is facing tough competition, tennis, cycling, cricket, athletics etc the UK or England are producing world class athletes who are at the top of their sports, in rugby league we aren't, there's Sam Tomkins who will go to RU soon and that's it.
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| Quote ="sally cinnamon" There is a lack of real quality at the top teams, which isn't to say there are no good players, just it is not what it was. The Aussies or Kiwis are going to rip England to shreds in the World Cup.'"
must admit the piece on the BBC website reporting that Myler could be out for a while gave a list of options in the halves should he miss the world cup...
Fit:
Kevin Sinfield - Leeds,
Rangi Chase - Castleford,
Stefan Ratchford - Warrington,
Rob Burrow - Leeds,
Jon Wilkin - St Helens
who could step in:
Matty Smith - Wigan,
Jonny Lomax - St Helens,
Luke Gale - Bradford,
Richard Horne - Hull,
Luke Robinson - Huddersfield
that is a list of piddle poor options so many full backs, hookers, and Loose forwards its a joke...OK Australia will go with a makeshift stand off but when thats Jonathan Thurston you wouldnt mind...
Quote ="sally cinnamon" The sport is facing tough competition, tennis, cycling, cricket, athletics etc the UK or England are producing world class athletes who are at the top of their sports, in rugby league we aren't, there's Sam Tomkins who will go to RU soon and that's it.'"
To be fair Ryan Hall will give the Aussies a game more than Tomkins will, he has been a pretty outstanding winger for club and country its a pity we dont 'big up' our genuine world class performers instead of a failed halfback that plays really well for his club against poor opposition.
Tomkins will leave superleague and it'll be what was the fuss......
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| Quote ="ScottHKR"He didn't give a reason as to why I am an idiot though?
Also, that is quite offensive, and shows the invisibility sitting behind a keyboard gives them.'"
Scott. I've been called far worse than that to my face many times (and sometimes I've justified it). If you think being called an idiot is offensive then maybe you should re-consider whether or not you really want to make statements that defy the laws of physics. You seem to have had a similar response on other Boards, especially on the Wigan one, so I think you should consider waving the white flag. If you really want to start a petition, address it to Neil Hudgell, and ask why HKR constantly try the referees patience with their lying on and messing around tactics at the ptb.
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| I sometimes wonder more often than not if there is a lack of knowledge of the rules from the spectator's side, therefore they get frustrated when decisions don't go the way they expected.
[url=http://widnesrlreferees.co.uk/#/quiz/4570865815Here's a little quiz[/url to see if your knowledge of even the most basic rules is up to scratch. And be honest...!
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| 8/10
i got question 2 & 3 wrong
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| Quote ="Horatio Yed"8/10
i got question 2 & 3 wrong'"
I got 7/10. I wonder if anyone has been penalised for Q8 in the past 10 years?
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| I thought differential penalties were for ANY scrum related penalties?
Am i right in that or not?
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| Quote ="ScottHKR"I propose we look at Rugby Union (shocking sport btw) and look that they can tell if a ball is passed forwards or backwards or not by looking at a video, none of this momentum cr@p.'"
Forward passes should only be judged forward if the ball moves forward relative to the player who passes the ball.
It's all to do with relativity; Galilean relativity states that the laws of motion are the same in all inertial frames. The problem is that after the player has passed the ball, he will often undergo an acceleration which will mean the frame of reference is no longer inertial. This makes it difficult to judge whether the ball has travelled forward or not. The only theory of relativity that can describe what happens in accelerating frames is Einstein's theory of general relativity, and I doubt the VR could use that to help him decide if a pass was forward or not, no matter how long you gave him.
Players usually are not travelling fast enough for the effects special relativity to come into play, so discarding Einstein's theories, we can go back to my original point and judge forward passes by simply applying Galilean invariance (assuming that all frames are inertial of course). There is one condition though, once you have selected your frame of reference you cannot change it when viewing the flight of the ball. This is the mistake most people make when judging forward passes. Their initial frame is the passer of the ball, they then change their frame to the pitch when viewing the flight of the ball. I would hazard a guess (although I have no empirical data to back this up), that viewed in this way around 50% of passes made to wingers travel forward. One of the problems is that your initial frame is often removed just after the pass has been made as the player is tackled. This makes judging whether the ball has gone forward very difficult, and no amount of camera angles will help you with this.
The only real solution is to look at the position of the passing player’s body and hands, and use this to judge whether the ball has been passed forward or not. I believe this is what referees currently do.
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| That's how I explained it last weekend.
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| Quote ="1905"Forward passes should only be judged forward if the ball moves forward relative to the player who passes the ball.
It's all to do with relativity; Galilean relativity states that the laws of motion are the same in all inertial frames. The problem is that after the player has passed the ball, he will often undergo an acceleration which will mean the frame of reference is no longer inertial. This makes it difficult to judge whether the ball has travelled forward or not. The only theory of relativity that can describe what happens in accelerating frames is Einstein's theory of general relativity, and I doubt the VR could use that to help him decide if a pass was forward or not, no matter how long you gave him.
Players usually are not travelling fast enough for the effects special relativity to come into play, so discarding Einstein's theories, we can go back to my original point and judge forward passes by simply applying Galilean invariance (assuming that all frames are inertial of course). There is one condition though, once you have selected your frame of reference you cannot change it when viewing the flight of the ball. This is the mistake most people make when judging forward passes. Their initial frame is the passer of the ball, they then change their frame to the pitch when viewing the flight of the ball. I would hazard a guess (although I have no empirical data to back this up), that viewed in this way around 50% of passes made to wingers travel forward. One of the problems is that your initial frame is often removed just after the pass has been made as the player is tackled. This makes judging whether the ball has gone forward very difficult, and no amount of camera angles will help you with this.
The only real solution is to look at the position of the passing player’s body and hands, and use this to judge whether the ball has been passed forward or not. I believe this is what referees currently do.'"
Nice post, put going back to 'the intial frame of reference'.
Could the second the players release the ball be used in a similar way asoffside at a kick are used. That initial frame is frozen in time on the camera, you then see if the catching player is behind the passing player or are the margins too small to identify?
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| Quote ="Horatio Yed"Nice post, put going back to 'the intial frame of reference'.
Could the second the players release the ball be used in a similar way asoffside at a kick are used. That initial frame is frozen in time on the camera, you then see if the catching player is behind the passing player or are the margins too small to identify?'"
In the strictest sense that would only work if the two frames were identical (both players running at the same velocity), you could then assume that you have a single frame of reference. If there is any difference in the two players' velocity then this would have to be taken into account. In practice you could apply what you are suggesting, but there are those 'flat' passes that are released when the oncoming player is clearly behind the releasing player, and the ball is correctly judge to have been passed forward. But in some situations, like a long pass to the winger it could be used to explain why a forward pass hasn't been given.
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| So i'm assuming if the wingers velocity is slower it's easy to judge but if its faster then it becomes more complicated?
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| Quote ="Horatio Yed"So i'm assuming if the wingers velocity is slower it's easy to judge but if its faster then it becomes more complicated?'"
Sort of.
It's the player who passed the ball who's speed is important the faster he is going the faster the ball is traveling forward too. So a pass he makes, even if he passes the ball backwards relative to him, may travel forward relative to the pitch, this is not a forward pass though. The faster the player is moving forward, the faster the ball is traveling forward relative to the pitch, and the effect will be more exaggerated. It also looks worse on a long pass as everyone in the ground can clearly see the ball travel forwards, relative to the pitch, and can become very frustrated when what looks a clear forward pass is not given. You are correct in thinking that the speed makes it more difficult to judge. Most forward passes are given from acting half, when the player passing is moving sideways or is stationary, those are easy to spot.
Bringing in the player who catches the ball complicates the issue. It's two players relative speed and positions that could be used to judge whether the ball has gone forward or not. The absolute speed of each player is not the issue.
If you imagine two players on a breakaway running flat out at say 10m/s. Then the ball is travelling at this speed too. Now lets say player A passes the ball to player B who is 1m behind him, relative to the try line. Even if the ball is in the air for 0.5 seconds it will travel forward 4m relative to the pitch. This will not be a forward pass and will look fine if player A continues to run forward. If player A stops though (gets smashed as he passes) it will look a mile forward and the crowd will be incensed. If both players were running at the same speed, then you could use player B's position when he catches the ball to assume where player A would be had he not been smashed.
A good rule of thumb, is that if two players are running flat out, and the receiving player is behind the passing player when the ball is released, then it's not a forward pass. Even if it goes forward, the ref's don't generally give them.
On a related note, the ref is often in the worst possible position to judge whether a pass has gone forward or not.
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| Quote ="Horatio Yed"I thought differential penalties were for ANY scrum related penalties?
Am i right in that or not?'"
Only technical offenses (ie, not binding correctly, ball placed in scrum incorrectly etc, and after the referee has given the team umpteen chances to do so correctly), foul play at the scrum is still a full penalty.
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| 7/10 for me
I guessed most of them as well.... just like Childs does
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| The amount of forward passes in the game are a result of the obsession with the flat attacking line that is popular with most teams ,but we either live with what we have or bring them into the realm of the video ref & risk even more stoppages in games unless they are only to be scrutinised if a try is scored.
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| Quote ="Peckerwood"I sometimes wonder more often than not if there is a lack of knowledge of the rules from the spectator's side, therefore they get frustrated when decisions don't go the way they expected.
[url=http://widnesrlreferees.co.uk/#/quiz/4570865815Here's a little quiz[/url to see if your knowledge of even the most basic rules is up to scratch. And be honest...!'"
8/10 for me.
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| Quote ="just_browny"I fear ScottHKR might be an idiot.'"
Harsh!
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