I'm confused.

Many seem to think our squad is decent and our coach is failing to get the best from them. If so, then our recruitment is ok, isn't it?

If it's actually because of 'dismal recruitment' then maybe the coach isn't to blame?

Is it likely that the club is just generally mediocre right through to the core? Recruitment, coaching, mentality - We are just mediocre.

If we want a football analogy, then maybe we need to follow the present Everton strategy - In recent times a club with big investment, but which has been followed by mediocrity and failure (sound familiar?). Now finally, they have fetched in a proven winner as manager and, though it's early in the season, the signs of improvement in both the team and assorted individuals is becoming apparent.

Ultimately, like I said last night, Mr Moran needs to spend his marquee money on his head of recruitment AND a coach. Get those two right and the rest will fall into place.

I said it before and I reiterate, spending power is as much a curse as a blessing. Prudence, dilligence and objectivity have been lacking.

For every Chris Hill we've signed an Anthony England
For every Adrian Morley we've signed a Latu
For every Gareth Carbell we've signed an Asotasi
For every Lee Briers we've signed a Tyrone Roberts
For every Trent Waterhouse we've signed a Jason Clark

Every agent in the NRL will have us on speed dial and every washed up, has been, never was, never will be, pension seeking parasite will continue to eye us up with lascivious eyes.

You looked at the set plays Wigan set up last night and it's a 7 on 5, runner everywhere and everyone knowing their role. I lost count last night the number of times backs and forwards took a one up last night, only to try a change of direction 6 yards from the line, lose the momentum and fall into the arms of a wigan defenders like a loved up mills and boon character.

Where on earth are the attacking tactics? You can't say Widdop hasn't been great in his career, nor become e over night. It must be down to the attacking coaching. For some reason we dont like set moves, we like off the cuff, but finals and wet weather footy ain't the place for it and the grand final is arguably both if these, every single year

I do feel sorry for our backers - they are fans at the end of the day and have put their money where their mouth is.
I think they will be getting increasingly frustrated too.
They are successful businessmen - that doesn't necessarily mean they can shape the club to be successful though. Obviously I hope they can.
Sometimes businessmen forgot their business principles whrn it comes to sport (the Everton analogy is apt).

As CW8 has said, most of us - including me - don't know what exactly is involved in each of the coaching roles so it's difficult for me to criticize Henderson, Briers, Gardner, Anderson, Leuluei etc. Ultimately though the buck stops with the head coach - particularly if they are given the resources to do the job. I don't think any of our 'Moran' coaches could complain about not having the resources or backing.
(Reminds me of a recent airbnb stay where, when we got there, we found the place hadn't been cleaned. We contacted the owner who apologized but when he checked, found out that the cleaners hadn't been in. He set about getting the cleaners in, but we left and said 'too late, the buck stops with the you'. Full refund and additional compensation followed).

Now it's been pointed out that Agar and others have left us and gone in to be successful elsewhere and that's interesting because I can't remember the likes of Agar getting anything but vitriol on the message boards.
Fans are also blinkered at times.

I really don't know what the answer is to turn us into a club with a 'winning DNA' but it has to overcome decades and decades of not having it.
I dislike Wane intensely for his style of rugby (or is it boring Thugby?) , but he's got a winning DNA. I could do with a GF win and would sacrifice some entertainment for that BUT only in the short term.

Our squad is decent. It’s littered with some really good players, one world class player in Daryl Clark and some very average & replaceable players. It certainly is one of the best squads in the league, (though that says more about the standard of SL than anything) but our recruitment has still been dismal. Both statements can be true.

As Mozza says for every Chris Hill there’s a Roy Asotasi/Anthony England. In the last five years I’d say we’ve made two good signings: Josh Charnley and Blake Austin. That’s off the top of my head. Think of the amount of players that have come and gone over the last five years, a strike rate of two is awful. I stand to be corrected if there’s anymore that have cut it though...

This is a good point which often gets missed.

I think in general we overrate our squad. All those threads we have where people say its a selection headache for the coach, how does he fit everyone in because our squad is so good....its more like, we have a lot of good players who are around the same level. Good but not the stars our fans think they are, and wouldn't interest Wigan or Saints.

Price has had us beating a superior Saints side in some big games including at Wembley last year. The idea that we have this title-favourite squad which is being held back by the coach is overblown.

We are about where I thought we'd be at the start of the season, given our squad. I thought we would be around the fringes of the playoffs, have a chance of winning a trophy but not be first or second in line. If you could simulate the rest of the season 100 times in 100 parallel universes, I reckon about 8 to 13 of them would finish in Wire winning the Grand Final.

We have a much better squad than Wigan, Leeds, Catalans and Salford and we’re behind four of them and the other team knocked us out the Challenge Cup.

If the ratio was one for one like this we'd be doing ok.

For every Lee Briers we've signed a Tyrone Roberts.....and a Scott Wilson, Adam Doyle, Kevin Walters, Matt Rodwell, Michael Sullivan....

Bryson Goodwin.

Even Michael Monghan came as a scrum half, where he was pretty average until he switched to hooker. What if he'd been average there too? Was a slice of luck rather than good recruitment.

The Sergeant Wilson thread hit the nail exactly on the head. The fact that any of us is considering keeping Price after this season if he doesn’t deliver the win is evidence of that.

For me, Price has until the end of the season. We start looking for a new coach now, and we don’t need to be quiet about it. Let Price, the players and other teams know that we’re ready to start winning. If we drop out of reach of a playoff position the he goes on the final hooter. Fitzpatrick can go too - what’s he adding?

We aren’t taken seriously by other teams and other fans because we don’t take ourselves seriously. Some of the fans here are happy with the mediocrity because following a losing team must mean they’re more of a fan.

We need somebody who is going to EXPECT victory from his players. We’ve had teams good enough to win on numerous occasions but it’s been a decade of waiting. Time to try something new. We need a horrible ba$tard - that man is still Wane.

Yep, I’ll give you that one.

We signed Goodwin on the rebound. Leigh got their first.

Exactly mate, we seem to just score off errors and lucky plays/bounces/passes etc we don't often score from set plays or direct running.
Widdop in broken play is amazing, facing a set line he doesn't to have a clue what to do. So many times through the whole team we just pass to a player stood still, who then passes to a player stood still etc etc
I saw about 2 plays that looked practised plays and we made some big yards off them. More of that please.

I know this is tantamount to the satanic verses and I expect that I will need to go into hiding shortly.
I appreciate everything that Simon Moran has done for this club. The players that we have seen and the success that we have had I could not have imagined when there were sit in protests and supporters throwing their season tickets on the pitch.
I do think that Simon Moran is too accessible to the players. When Matty Russell signed I found it odd in an interview that Russell said he had spoken to Moran about the direction of the club which I found a bit odd. If I had heard that from Cameron Smith I would have got it but Matty Russell? I get the impression that he is almost mates with them and that would certainly explain Briers and Westwood being able to secure jobs at the club.
I might be wide of the mark here but I also get the impression that SJM also likes to play football manager (for those old enough to remember the ZX SPECTRUM). From the Andrew John's signing through to Greg Inglis and the reported courting of Cooper Cronk, Even though they are fantastic players it is not how you build a winning mentality and culture.
When I look at Wellens or Radlinski I don't reckon they got a job in their respective clubs because they are a good laugh after a few pints. It is because they are winners and demand success and professionalism. I am sure they are decent blokes
We all know that Westwood and Briers were not the best trainers.
I heard when TS took over that he looked at the wage bill and said wow, some of these players have not got a GF winners ring. Some of those players are still involved with the club in a coaching capacity and still don't have a GF ring

If SJM want to lift the SL trophy then I think he needs to look at his own involvement as well. If we do move in a different direction then maybe a new coach, CEO and new approach because what we have been doing isn't working. This is no criticism of Simon Moran because if Greg Inglis agent bumped into me at Lords and said that GI might fancy a go in SL of course I would be interested but maybe the wise thing to do would be to give the agent the head coaches phone number and say that the Head coach makes the decisions I suspect that happens the other way round.

Many was the time last night, when Gelling, Currie, King (even Hughes) ran across our line looking for an offload, but we looked disinterested/unprepared.

I remember during the period when we were putting big scores on most teams, we had dummy runners in every move. Teams literally had no clue how to stop us. I didn't see many dummy runners last night...plenty of offloads...but at the line you need to create some doubts in the defence ....we are too predictable.

We are the RL equivalent of Butch Wilkins. Only know how to move from side to side.

Said earlier in the week, our attacking line is far too shallow and so they are all static when receiving the ball - We must be a dream to defend against.

Agree with what both you and LG are saying, we don't seem to able to break down opposition in their own 25.

Tony Smith has stated on many occasion that he didn't coach the attack, as he left it to the players. These repeated comments made me wonder who did, within the group of players we had, as they were rather good at it. This squad is competitive and has good ability, in comparison to the current top 4 in SL. But it could be great if we had attacking structures that got even the best defence on the back foot.

So the charge sheet against Simon Moran is:
- he speaks to his players about his plans for the direction of the club
- he plays football manager (although I don't get the reference to ZX Spectrum...FM has been mainly a PC game, Spectrum was stuff like Daley Thompson Decathlon

)
- he has signed / targeted world class players
- Westwood and Briers cited as negative examples

As for coaches not having a Grand Final ring as a player, we had Jimmy Lowes but people didn't like him. Saints jettisoned Keiron Cunningham and brought in Justin Holbrook. Holbrook played a handful of first grade games in the NRL and was predominantly a back up. How would international players in the Saints roster be expected to respect him, after they've just had a legend like KC.

I think the question is more how much involvement should an investor, like Mr Moran, have in the day to day running of the team?

Surely after he has found himself a director of rugby, then he should step back and have zero influence from there on?.. Take away his healthy bank balance and it's fair to say that Mr Moran is no more knowledgeable on how to create a SL winning side than the majority on here. I mean, wasn't his whole everyman persona built on the fact he was just a honest fan, who supported the side from the Wilderspool terraces?

As DDI said, there is often a whiff of Football Manager when it comes to some of our transfer dealings. More thought of headlines and shirt sales than actual team building and achieving long term success.

Moran and Middleton are like us on here, fans (but we have thinner wallets)

Just as DSM may spot a talent on his weekends watching the NRL, someone like Deus Dat Incrementum will say "boll0x, he's crap".... it's all about opinions.


(if what we hear is true) Moran is having an input on personnel /recruitment. That's not in his remit. His is concert promotion. His (and Middleton's) input should just be cash and good will. If anyone's seen the film [iThe Damned United[/i and remembers the relationship between Brian Clough and his Derby Country chairman Sam Longson will know exactly what I mean.

Another point is.... How many times do you reckon we get a bit of a roll on or catch a kick on the full, only for Charnley to take the next drive and rather than hit the floor and keep the momentum going he rolls around on the floor looking for a penalty....

Just get up and play it ffs. The opposition is on the back foot struggling to make the 10 meters and he's balling about looking for a pen or back to 6. Really starting to grind my gears.

Football Manager was originally the name of another game on ZX Spectrum in the 80’s. When the makers of Championship Manager split from the publisher Eidos and required a new name they bought the Football Manager name.

It was the right action to take before ‘Six again’ as he did get awarded a fair amount of penalties. Now though we’ve got to play the ball quick when we can, and get a roll on.