Wire71 has always been more comfortably deathriding the team than he has praising our achievements. I wouldn't worry too much.

Why did you not play like that for Royce?

This aint some massive conspiracy theory, we lost a game of Rugby to a better team.

Gutted about the amount of fans who abandoned the new corner with 10-15 mins left though. There was only a handful of us left for the last 10 mins.

Because he never picked the same team week in week out and his use of subs was dire to say the least,it disrupted the team and now their shackles are off and they can be more creative.

Harsh. I was slagged off since my comments on Cullen being gash pre 2006*. When there was a general love in. I've hardy breathed a word since TS turned it around. Something isnt right at Wire we are scarcely recognisable from last season. Maybe it's just the ageing team that peaked last season.

*Actually you can trace it back to 2004 where I said we would win nothing under him conceding an average of 22.5+ points per game. Anyway I prob know nowt. But if you were happy with that, neither do you.

Hmmmm......

I think the players just got frustrated under Royce. He tried to change the way Saints play, continuing Potter's shift in emphasis away from the 'Saints way' of playing. For the second half of his first year in charge the players gave it their all, but from reading the comments made by players there were a lot of things in his coaching that just confused them. His rotation policies that disrupted the team, his back on the bench policy, which was just stupid with 10 interchanges and his attacking moves. Jon Wilkin said recently they didn't know what they were doing on the field and felt clueless as to what he actually wanted them to do.

I don't think Rush and Cunningham have done anything miraculous, they've just gone back to the senior players, the likes of Flannery, Gardner and shifting Hohaia to the halves. Then they've adopted the tactics we used early in Super League and under Millward in focusing the attack through the middle around the ruck. The pack is charging in, getting to ground and Roby is up and active from dummy half again. They are also clearly given far more freedom to offload and play off the cuff when it suits, something both Potter and Simmons were against, preferring 'safe' rugby.

Carry on like this and it will be back to the days of 1986 crowds wise at FT. Having said that at least we had a pack then that stood up and were counted for.

The problem with a lot of our forwards seems to be confidence. For me, if you're not confident, or if you're not pulling things off, you should always go back to the basics and simply drive it as hard as you can up the middle. If you burst the tackle and your entire body is free, maybe look for a clear offload, if not, just take the tackle and play the ball. Too often there seems to be little thought into what they are doing: Paul Wood done the daftest offload tonight about 20m from our line, they scored straight from it. Against Wigan last week, he done a similar thing, offloaded as his arm was inches from the ground, thankfully the ref called it back for the high shot but it's clear, he's doing things without conscience and without indication. Whether Smith's put him straight about it, I don't know, but Paul clearly needs to go back to the basics to build his confidence and form up. Carvell is similar, seems to be looking for an offload at every opportunity, tonight the support play wasn't brilliant, but that's no excuse to turn around and throw it blindly.

For me, Morley was decent tonight, he ran hard and, although he isn't as effective as he once was, he was, alongside Hill, fairly decent, although his defence was suspect.

Didn't Morley go off injured around the half hour mark and not return? Something to do with his elbow?

Couldn't tell you, I watched through my hands after the third minute.

Agreed but I think the forward problem is decision making. At 10 min in 12-0 down it was a case of hard yards yet we spunk the ball up. I think we all know, but hate to say, Morley has already played his best game for us in previous seasons. A pale imitation of the legend we was.

Which one of your Australian's was it that said to Thaler, "You're bent" after he went to the video ref after Wellens' strop at not being given the try when Roby or Laffranchi were ruled to have knocked on. 50 minutes 50 seconds or thereabouts on the clock at the time.

Of course he's past it, but the sad thing is, a past it Morley is still better than most of what British RL has to offer.

I can't remember where I said it, or if I even said it on here, but I've been saying all season that for the first twenty minutes of the game, we should play five drives and a kick rugby, simply to gain a foothold and work the opposition forwards down. When you do things like we did, like Blythe's offload, Wood's offload and Carvell's lunacy, you invite the opposition onto yourself and gift them extra momentum, something this Saints side didn't need.

If I were Smith (I know, just imagine...), I'd tell every single one of those forwards that if they offload it in our half, they're dropped for the next game. I can't remember a decent offload tonight, Saints were clearly onto it but we persisted with trying to get it away in the tackle, if the forwards just knuckled down and decided to make an extra four metres instead of looking for the extra pass, we might have got somewhere in the 'comeback'. I can't believe I'm saying it, but a few of the experienced heads should really take a look at Hill and Cooper and learn a little, flash rugby is all very well and good when you're thirty points clear against beaten opposition, but when you're getting thumped and momentum is entirely against you, it is, as the title suggests, suicidal.

Probably Michael Monaghan, he's usually in disbelief at the referees over here and usually answers back a bit.

It was funny listening back to it. Thaler takes it likes he's just asking a reasonable question and replied calmly about the reasons for his decision.

I hear you. But most of our allure, potency and flair comes from offloading in our own half - when it's on. It's getting big daft forwards to realise when and when not to. I really think some of them have decision making difficulties when put under pressure. Carvell's magic on 39:59 was simply incredible. He must have the brain the size of an atom.

complete . when you did start to offload it gave us a chance it gave us some possession back. We on the other hand were absolutlely disgusting we completed one set of six in a half of rugby league FFS...!!!!

you take as much comfort as you want and think you've turned a corner .... all you have done is come up against the most half witted team in superleague and beat them by 8 points.

possibly the stupidest thing ive ever seen on a rugby pitch.

I appreciate it hurts, but show some degree of class. You were very poor but being 22-0 down after as many minutes with hardly any ball at that point you have to admit the opposition have done alright.

Of course, but I think those chances to offload come when we catch the opposition forwards unsettled. It's no secret that Tony's spoken about the slower pace at the PTB this season, Saints slowed us down to great effect tonight, it meant that when Carvell ran at them and turned, they had three/four men in the tackle, waiting for the precious to be handed to them. Last year, when we were at our best, our forwards were running at the opposition on the back foot, we were isolating them in the collision and getting support for the offload. I said in the thread about Waterhouse the other day, once we pick up the speed of our play and get him running at one or two players, he'll be offloading at will, but for now, the opposition are wrapping him up, even if he has still got away a lot of offloads. It's the same for all of them.

Agreed. Worse then Lyon missing touch against Wigan when we were poised to score and on the up whenever that was. You have to guess what's going on in his tiny cranium (if anything). Fecking shocking. Needs dropping on that and his general performance. I want the Carvell v2011 back.

Very good point. Do we have a game plan when the ref instills a slow PTB?



Having said that no excuse for passes above heads, knock ons from bread baskets, ed up crazy offloads and passes into touch. We were nuts tonight. Simple.

dont understand what showing class has to do with anything i'm being realistic its you who is living with ones head in the clouds

we gifted you possession like no other team has done in the league all season it was amateurish.we did the same to Wakefield and got suitably bummed for that. you did a ten point better job than Wakey simple as that

If you think you can win a grand final playing like you did then fair do's but unfortunately for you you wont play a team like us in a grand final.... as we will be out after the first round.

you have beaten a team with red hair who were expecting an easy game and a side that chucks the ball around like under 7's that are plaing with a ball rolled in dog pooh.

class my ar$e your Saint Helens for fecks sake

This does, with respect, smack of sour grapes. Best team won. And in the first 20 they were Warrinton'esque.