So conversely then, you'd suggest that Price is far and away the best coach in the league? He's made 3 finals, won one, beaten Saints and Wigan in every important knockout game they've been paired with Warrington. I can't believe he doesn't get the plaudits he deserves?

Imagine what Saints and Wigan could achieve with Price?

I'd agree your squad is good, probably the third best in SL and Clark isn't the only international standard player therin, Toby King, Ben Currie, Joe Phillbin are three that spring to mind as being good enough for any SL team, add Widdop and Austin, although misfiring and most teams would take that.

Cooper is better than any prop in Wigans squad. He'd also get in saints team alongside walmsley.

In a salary capped sport there will always be weaknesses in any team's line up. A coach's job is to exploit an opposition's weakness AND to protect his weaknesses in his own side as well.

Powell will recognise our weaknesses and a major part of his job is to limit issues with them as much as possible.

He's not the best coach in the league but its a fair question about whether Price has been competing with a weaker squad than the teams who have been winning the trophies.

In terms of overall win/loss record I don't think Price has overachieved with the squad he has, but if it's all about trophies, he won one with a squad that was good but not great. We were probably the second weakest team to win the Challenge Cup since Sheffield Eagles in 1998, the weakest being the Catalans team that beat us the year before.

All through Price's time here, we've had 3 consistent problems:
- Lack of leadership in the team, captains unsuited to the role.
- Inconsistent and largely underperforming halfback play.
- Lack of depth in the forwards, weak benches.

How many teams with those issues, win trophies?

Shaun Wane obviously doesn't think so.

I was, of course, being facetious with the Price comment in response to a bit of trolling.

But looking at the 3 problems you've listed about Price's tenure, I think the lack of leadership and inconsistency are where we differ to Saints and Wigan. There's a lack of depth in the forwards at all clubs, and usually only one' impact' forward who really makes a difference form the bench for each team.

Regarding the so-called weak squad fans of other clubs rattle on about, I really can't see where our core positions are so inferior:

Ratchford vs Coote / Hardaker (all internationals)
King/Charnley/Lineham vs Makinson/Grace/Bibby/Field (maybe Makinson stands out above the others)
Austin-Widdop vs Lomax-Fages/Hastings-Leuluai (arguably Austin-Widdop would shine in the Saints or Wigan line-ups)
Hill/Cooper/Philbin vs Walmsley/Amor/Lees/Singleton/Bullock et al
Clark vs Roby/Powell

Not really much in that. It's mentality, coaching and getting much more out of what is already a very good squad.

Well Cas are getting their backsides handed to them against HKR right now 22-6 halftime.

I suspect there's a bit of worry right now in that dressing room. With all the departure announcements there's obviously something afoot behind the scenes and that's not a nice thing to have hanging over you. Of course, Cas won't be the only RL club clinging on right now. I do wonder how Super League will look at the start of next season...

Some game 33-32 to Cas O’Brien drop goal to win it

Do Toby King, Mike Cooper, Chris Hill, Ben Currie, Jack Hughes and Joe Philbin all play a different sport?

Henderson getting a 2nd interview according to Casforum, wonder if he will take Briers has his assistant.

Yeah Briers is offski. Powell is bringing in his own staff.

Briers is George Riley's new research assistant

Not many of those guys are going to trouble the Aussies. Maybe Hill, Cooper and Currie 5 years ago.

:2qptcq3r

Those comparisons are quite revealing, especially if you think we are too predictable and should play a more open expansive game. We're quite one-paced in the backs compared to those other teams and if Powell wants to come in and start playing like he did at Castleford's peak he might go with Ashton at fullback, bring in one or two quicker wingers/centres.

Also saying Austin and Widdop would shine in the Saints or Wigan line ups...I don't think those are the type of signings Saints or Wigan would make. They are very much 'Warrington' halfbacks - big name NRL signings on big salaries who struggle to live up to them. Saints and Wigan tend to go more for home grown halfbacks or identify players who aren't the obvious names but are underrated.

The other point I could have added where we have been consistently poor during Price's time is with our kicking game, but this goes back further, since Briers retired.

These discussions about our squad vs the top teams remind me of where we were around 2006 with Cullen where people were trying to convince themselves that we had the team to compete ['look at all the internationals', when if we were honest, the other top teams wouldn't have taken any of them. Those guys were gone when we were actually a good team. It's the same now, Wigan and Saints aren't looking enviously at our squad wishing they had some of our players, none would be obvious starters other than Daryl Clark, the others would be squad depth.

There will be a thread on here at some point, like there is every year, saying the problem with Warrington is we accept less than what Wigan and Saints demand, and this kind of thing sums it up. Its like when every year we announce contract extensions and there's a swathe of comments saying great news, the future's bright the future's Wire! Or when we go on a winning run for a few weeks there will be a thread saying is Ratchford the best Warrington signing in the Super League era. Wigan and Saints operate in a different universe of expectations.

Also I'm not saying these players are bad. It just comes down to where you want to set your expectations. If you want Warrington to be a club that's there or thereabouts in the playoffs, has a chance of getting to Wembley every few years, maybe winning the odd trophy, like Hull and Cas, then our players are good enough to do that, so is Price as coach.

If you see the benchmark as winning the Grand Final then the expectations need to be reset in line with the clubs that actually win Grand Finals: Wigan, Saints and Leeds. It's not a coincidence that those three teams win every year.

The other problem with this hero-worship about our squad of great internationals is when we simultaneously complain that we don't give young players a shot like they do at Wigan or Saints. Well how can you justify dropping guys like Ratchford, Charnley, Lineham, King, Widdop, Austin, Hill, Clark, Cooper, Philbin, Currie....that's eleven starters locked in who Price can't drop, twelve when Inglis comes in. How do you give young talent a chance with all those internationals...

I believe with injuries and knocks or whatever, there's always an opportunity for first team experience (same applies to Wigan or Saints youngsters breaking through). The issue is, when a player does well and earns a right to the shirt. It's what a coach is paid to do with picking the right 17 for each and every match we play. Like you've already explained, a coach is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, with some of us.

Question is with Thewliss and Wrench, rather than Ashton, is would they be able to play at SL level week in, week out, to enable a coach to be able to give them an extended run at this point in time. My opinion is that Ashton's there already, and his time will come, but more patience may be required with Wrench, Thewliss, Dean and others, to make it as a regular in Wire's SL gameday 17.

Maybe it’s the way I worded my post, but I absolutely am not hero-worshipping the players mentioned. What I am doing is refusing to hero-worship their equivalents at Saints or Wigan.

To put it another way, bring Hastings, Coote, Walmsley, Grace into this team would they have looked any better than the current Warrington core? Coote and Hastings would be ridiculed as NRL rejects who have the odd good game, Walmsley solid but not spectacular and Grace too small and weak in defence and under the high ball.

I really don’t think the playing roster is the biggest issue at Warrington.

The difference, I think, is that we have to actively recruit players. All of our players. There will be players in our 25 who are bit-part players, but have been brought in from other clubs on bigger money than they warrant.

Look at Morgan Smith, for example. He was never a star, but his wage would have been well above what he returned for the club. Same could be said about Matt Davis, Danny Walker, Jake Mamo, Marty Ashton, Sita, Keenan Brand etc. We have to buy squad fillers, whereas Saints and Wigan have their own, who are will be willing to play for them for less to fulfil the dream. It’s always cheaper to keep a player than to buy one.

Harry Smith will be on an interim contract, more than an academy kid, but not a ‘signed’ future star. Compare that with Walker, who was at a similar stage when we picked him up, who we had to compete for his signature.

We need to trust the youth, play them and stand by them. I’d argue that Robson is as effective as Jason Clark, or Doro comparable with Sita, or even Thewlis with Ashton (although very different players, I like Ashton, he’s electric, but I think Thewlis is a more rounded player and will make an excellent player given his chance).

No idea what wage those players would be on, but Saints recruitment of Paasi looks spot on watching the Saints CC match.
Our recruitment has been average at best over the last 10 years at least and because we haven't had the youth in numbers coming through it's a double whammy.
Typically you'll generally have to pay more to bring players in at whatever level, but too often they've not lived up to expectations.

You could probably compare us to the Leeds team that Daryl Powell inherited from Dean Lance in 2001. There were a lot of players who were internationals. Brett Mullins, Tonie Carroll, Iestyn Harris, Ryan Sheridan, Robbie Mears, Jamie Mathiou, Darren Fleary, Andy Hay, Brad Clyde, Anthony Farrell. You could have made an argument then that the issue wasn't the quality of the roster, they just needed the right coach.

But also you could have pointed at a lot of those players and asked were they on the way up or were they plateauing/coasting or in steady decline, like you can with us now.

Those players were all moved on in 2 years under Powell. Probably involved some hard conversations, as Powell had only just retired as a player and he would have fit that category of established players who were treading water, the year before. Some of those would have been his mates. Powell brought in Mark Calderwood, Richie Mathers, Rob Burrow, Danny McGuire, Ryan Bailey, Danny Ward, JJB, Matt Diskin. He also brought in some older players around them who had a good attitude: Gary Connolly, Andrew Dunemann, Willie Poching, Chris McKenna, Matt Adamson, David Furner, Adrian Vowles. It was a total squad overhaul. Those older players coming in, weren't the coasting/declining players that had been moved on, they were a considerable upgrade in attitude and hunger. Some of the guys in the Leeds team he inherited, had been successful a few years earlier in the Graham Murray era, but the game was moving on and Powell recognised that the squad needed a reset.

The squad that Powell handed over to Tony Smith after his 2 and a half years was faster, hungrier and played better rugby than the one he inherited. Now you could say, they didn't win anything when Powell was there - which is a fair point. But also not a bad job given that Powell had just retired as a player and was learning on the job at a big club. The squad culture was changed from one of big names who were underdelivering to one that was ready to win. If Powell does that with us he's done his job. I wouldn't be surprised if over the next few years Powell does a lot of surgery on the squad which will mean some peoples favourites are moved on, but there aren't many in our squad who I think would be a massive loss, other than Clark.

Had to laugh at his interview with Tanya for his MOM award...

Tanya: “You must have dreamed about playing in the challenge cup from half way across the world?”

Paasi: “Errrr... I’d heard of it”.

Agree with this and your stance on player comparisons. Even if saints and Wigan have better squads our team is under performing and has for a while. That's ultimately the coaches job.

I don't think it's necessarily a mentality thing us vs leeds/ wigan/Leeds for the superleague trophy, I think their academy backup means that they don't
patch up lads who are injured to get them on the field so much as we do, they have far more depth in their cover because their academies are better than ours and produce more and better players, they also have a playing identity which means they can adapt straight away in to the first team playing style. I honestly think that the ability to rotate more when needed means their players hit the end of the season fresher than ours. We have only got. 3 academy lads who I believe come in to the first team and not look out of place and they are Thewlis, Dean and Longstaff. I'm sure a few others would surprise me in all fairness as i'm only judging from what I saw last season when they stepped up and none of them had been pkaying competitive rugby. Point is though that the likely front runners have more.

will be interesting to see how the relation ship between Powell and Fittzpatrick developes. Cannot see Powewll being at ease with KFPs showboating and publicity shots