So you know how there were a fair few people wanting Wane as our manager? And you know how a fair few on here said Hill and Cooper weren’t up to the job (Can you tell what it is yet?). So with Wane selecting both of them for England should those who wanted Wane change their minds, or those who called Hill and Coops not good enough do a volte face?
Fill your boots.

In previous internationals ,Hill & Cooper were arguably better than the Burgess brothers.
I fully expect them to be better next season than the players we have coming in from Oz the South of France.

I’m not sure it’s just a case of ‘not good enough’.

Firstly, with Hill we would have had to sign him up for two years at a salary likely to be similar to his last contract. If we had ended up limping out of the playoffs again this year, we’d be on here ranting about not spending our money more appropriately.

Secondly, it was a question of removing the ‘old guard’. The coaching team had been tasked by the club with changing our playing style, leadership, and general attitude issues. I have no knowledge of the inner workings of the squad, but I’d be willing to bet that the coach told the club he needed to identify the root cause of why an expensively assembled team never managed to equate to the sum of its parts. I’m sure that a stale ‘old guard’ with a negative mindset wasn’t going to help change our usual damp squib grand final push.

And that brings me to Cooper. I really like Cooper and I think he’s a great prop. A great leader he clearly is not. It’s difficult when a club has established and popular parts of the woodwork (and in the leadership group) fighting against what the coach has been tasked with.

When you have two players so ingrained in the club, it’s hard to expect to revolutionise the mindset of the squad when said players push back. I guess we’ll know soon if Powell has what it takes to turn our now lesser quality squad into a team that is actually greater than the sum of its parts. He won’t have long to do it, mind!

Re: Cooper and Hill being better than what we’ve got coming in, it’s hard to say. Vaughan and Maguire (despite not being a typical prop) are arguably seasoned internationals, and younger. Raw-quality wise they’re every bit as good I think. It’s just a case of whether they can do it in a potentially nervous Warrington squad.

Put another way - If Steve Price had stayed for 2022 and signed Vaughan and Maguire to replace an ageing Hill and Cooper, promising therm as the sort of on-field leaders we need in the playoffs, I’d have been very happy.

I think Vaughan, Dudson, Kasiano & Mikaele are our strongest set of 4 props we have had for a long time, well supported by Philbin & Bullock.

It doesn't really matter how Hill & Coops perform once they've left the club or what they go on to achieve. Fact is we needed change, they were part of the old guard that failed to deliver a Grand Final win, I don't think we supported them well enough with additional prop signings of quality, but the past is the past.

It was the right time for both to move on I think to enable change. I wish it hadn't been so acrimonious, and I would have like to see what 2 props such as Kasiano & Mikaele could have done alongside Hill & Coops a few years back, but we are where we are.

Big fan of Cooper, but based on what I've seen this season I think he's very lucky to be selected ahead of oledski.

thats typical fans 'degree in hindsight'.you'd had fans calling him rotten for giving penalties away and losing us games, when he left it was a disasterous decision to let him go

Same thing going on with toby king now, "he's useless, he can't defend, we're overpaying him, the board making terrible recruitment decisions"

Whereas at the time, he was the form centre in the league, he was an england international, just come off being a dream team member, people were saying the board were making a terrible recruitment decision if they let an academy player leave to a rival (saints)

Hindsight is a wonderful thing .
However I never got the "Love in" with Toby King .Distinctively I remember Josh Charnley trying to give him a lesson on how to pass mid game and thinking to myself this is under 8's stuff this Toby.
But he could catch a high Kick, Shame after Austin went rubbish we never put any that way

Dudson will have to serve his full suspension for us.

He has not been included in the Wales World Cup squad because he would have been unavailable for their 1st three games.

Is it possible that Charnley was trying to deflect blame for something he had got wrong? Like Matt King used to blame Kev Penny in his first season for defensive misreads?
I only ask because whatever the level of incompetence is levelled at the club I find it very difficult to believe that in all the years he was with us none of his coaches noticed he couldn’t pass.

Agreed (with bells on).

DOUBLE POST SORRY

I suppose some players work hard to take on board the coach’s advice, and others take offence at it. I’m not saying that’s the issue in this particular case, but the subject [iwas[/i brought up in an interview recently.

The real test will be to see if the weaker areas of King’s game are suddenly rectified by Peet at Wigan. If so, it means either Peet is a good coach or King has matured a lot. Either way, it will be good for us because he’s contracted to us for 2024/5.

I guess if all the players who have left under Powell's tenure suddenly start to play at their best level, questions must be asked as to whether the bad apples are the players or the coach?

Not necessarily. These players may have gone to Wigan / Hudds / Ano with a different attitude and be more acceptance to change considering they don't have the same level of influence they have (had) at Warrington. More often than not it is the change that causes the issue.

Couldn’t have put it better myself.

I think there’s a slip into a low-pressure comfort zone when a top player joins Warrington. Not necessarily an intentional slip, but the natural result of a long contract on big money, a close and happy relationship with the top brass, and a long in the tooth leadership group who don’t have a reason to drive anything in a different way. Why would you? You’re getting paid well and your natural talent is just enough to keep your team near the top of the table without pushing yourself.

I hope that doesn’t sound too harsh, like I’m accusing some players of taking the pee intentionally, but how else do you explain the poor return on investment? We’ve literally been the only big-spending club in RL for the last decade, with only one trophy to show (and that day was without some
of our ‘star’ players!). We’ve blamed the last coach, now we’re blaming the current one despite his record of improving teams and players.

I think the answer lies closer to following the example of other top clubs, and emulating their youth development, player / management relationship, and standards.

This is bang on the money. The 1 trophy in the last 10 seasons really speaks for itself.

We need to face facts that top players and top prospects are going to choose to sign for Wigan, Saints or Leeds before Warrington (the real prospect of winning things) unless financially incentivised otherwise. This in turn means we attract a certain type of player.

I am afraid it appears the likes of Hill, Cooper, Clark, Currie, King et al are more motivated by picking up decent salaries than they are to actually to win a league title at any cost.

I don't know how we break this cycle. Certainly without change, it would not change on it's own.

Youth development only gets you so far though, in my opinion.

We have invested fortunes in this area already, John Bastian, Phil Jones, Pete Riding all being bought in from successful systems. Pete Farrell and a whole network of scouts searching the country for talent.

All of this has seen players brought in to the arena of first team squads, to see some minutes thrown their way then moved on or, worse still, kept hold of without playing opportunities long enough for their career to fail.

This isn’t a poke at Powell, but at him, Price and Smith. Look back at Saltonstall who was kept out by signings like Wheeler. Jack Johnson, Will Dagger and now Josh Thewlis all being the heir apparent for the fullback spot, yet we go out and sign Mamo (I purposely won’t add Dufty, as he is a top-level player, not someone that is just a squad filler). Players like Pat Moran and Ellis Robson behind Lama Tasi and Sita. Even now, Ratchford is clogging the way for Dean and Hayes.

There are players at the level to get into the first team squad, and the argument will be that these players aren’t ready. But nobody is ever ready until you put them in and trust them.

Some will fall flat on their face, some will rise to the challenge. But if we don’t put them in, and keep them in, the whole process is null and void, regardless of who you have as head of youth, 16’s coach, 19’s coach etc.

We need to change the culture of the club, buying in, and grow from within.

Oh ,for winning & losing pay.

As with football, only a handful of RL clubs have a chance of winning anything . The Wire seems to be a perennial fringe club whose players can beat anybody on their day but lack prolonged cup or title winning motivation & effort. Perhaps this attitude is through the club like a stick of Blackpool rock.

Saints ,Wigan & Leeds strive to be top dogs ,we don't.

Completely agree.

1. Dean did not deserve dropping after 1 game against Wigan.
2. Patton did not deserve to make as many appearances as he did.

So give everyone a fair sporting chance, then decide and stick to it.

Not really, Hill isn't the force he was, despite still being a good player. If Walmsley hadn't got injured i don't think Hill would have made the England squad to be honest. And Cooper is a good player but still at the back end of his career so is just a steady eddie prop now.
The pack we have for next year is brilliant, and will be a dominant force next year.
Vaughan, Dudson, Kasiano, Mikaele, McGuire, Bullock and James Harrison will do a very good job for us so I don't regret letting Hill and Coops go now. I did at the time but not anymore.
I didn't add Philbin in that list as i think unless someone is injured or being rested he's not gonna make the team.

He won't. A shadow of the 2019 version anyway and that was before injury.

When a new coach recruits a pack like that he’s set a challenge to the likes of Philbin to step up and fight for their place. This is what would happen at Wigan, Saints and Leeds. It’s happening at Huddersfield next year for sure. Pryce and Lolohea have Connor to beat for a place in the team.

Price has one foot out the door, he'll be trying to not get injured for Newcastle in 2024

Think Connor may be out till August based on something I read (but can’t remember where!)