Starting a new thread to reply to Wires71 in the Patton thread:



As a club we seem to have been very keen to push a "good news story" culture around our academy, for a long time now. The general narrative that we have been told seems to be that up to the end of the 1990s, we were disorganised in terms of youth development with little formal structure and just relied on using sign-on fees to get talented kids to join us and hope we found some good ones. Then during the DVDV era we set up the scholarship and from then on got a lot more formal structures in the youth set up and it became a lot more professional. For a good 15 years or more we've had lots of good news stories about the Academy in the Warrington Guardian, or at supporters events where club officials will say the right things about how we've invested hard and are starting to see the rewards of it in the lads coming through now. On this forum there will be people that follow the Academy giving glowing reports about various players and in the off season we always get threads like "the future's bright, the future's Wire" where people list a potential first team for a couple of years time full of home grown players and so on.

The feel good stories are always there, but where are the players?

The end result is the quality of players coming through and if we're really honest we haven't improved, we're stuck at the same level of producing one or two lads every four years or so who are good enough to be decent first teamers and a handful of others who follow the path Wires71 says above. This is nowhere near what the clubs who win trophies regularly like Leeds, Wigan and Saints are doing. They churn out internationals, players that sign for NRL clubs, and also some guys who aren't as good as their next batch of home grown talent and so they get moved on to clubs like us!

The last time we were at that level was in the early to mid 1990s when we brought through Harris, Sculthorpe, Lee Penny, Hilton, Wainwright, Roper and Knott. 2 superstars there plus a few others who were at least good SL players for a while. If we had produced at that sort of rate every decade I would be very happy. Instead this is what we have had:

DVDV era: Wood, Sibbit, Noone, Hulse, Highton, Alstead, Stenhouse, Campbell, Cowell

Cullen era: C Riley, Cooper, K Penny, Pickersgill, Blythe, Mitchell, Durbin

TS era: Currie, Dwyer, O'Brien, Philbin, Patton, R Evans, Williams, McCarthy, Ormsby, G Riley, D Bridge, B Evans, King, Wild, Smith, Johnson, Dagger, Livett

Probably around 4 of those were quality players who would have interested top sides. Then another 6 or 7 you could argue would be decent first team SL standard for a mid-table side. The rest were not good enough although in some cases they got a lot of games with us, that they would not have done at other clubs where there is more upwards pressure from the next generation coming through.

Something has not worked in our Academy set up. I understand you have to give it time, sure but we're talking nearly 20 years now and the disappointing thing is the quality of players coming through doesn't seem any better than it was in the early 2000s or late 1990s, and there are no real superstars to show for it. We are still streets behind Wigan, Saints and Leeds and although for a while we could compete with them in terms of money and signing experienced players hence our 3 Challenge Cups and various losing appearances in finals and league leaders shields, the Academy is a clear dividing line between us and them and until that's sorted out we will be fighting an uphill battle to match those clubs.

I think Philbin looks like the best we’ve produced from a young age for a long time. He’s an athletic lad, fast, good tackler, runs good lines, good footwork. I’m actually really impressed with him.

I don’t really know how long Currie was in our youth set-up but he’s arguably the best player in the team.

Other than that I’m scratching my head.

Good post. It's a complex subject that involves

1. Scouting - finding the players which we will need in 5 years.
2. Recruitment - beating off the likes of Wigan/Saints/Leeds to recruit them.
3. Developing the potential - taking a young player and giving them the skills and know how to develop to their potential.
4. Transitioning the young player into a full time 17 player.
5. Retaining the player should other clubs want to tempt them away.

Our academy is said to be world class. I wonder which of these 5 we do better than others.

SC's list is a damping indictment if how far our scouting/development of youth has fallen, since it's 90's revamp. Those opening names still sit very well with me (bar Knott, never kicked on, for me).

Since then, only Wood, Riley, Penny and Currie are the only ones to come close. The rest (bar permacrock Rhys Evans....what might have been) are merely flotsam and jetsam or plain tosh.

So that's it. 10 players in 25 years. That's p155p00r by most standards, let alone a club who's youth policy is looked on with envious eyes.

With RU going pro 20+ years ago, top notch Aussies don't come here anymore, apart from idiots who can't behave themselves, and our underperforming youth policy, no wonder Moran's chequebook is regularly on his desk.

Can you add Ben Harrison & possibly James Laithwaite to that list. Terry Newton was also an academy player (before Leeds poached him)

Is it the quality of the young players or the quality of coaching post academy years? We seem to have a glass ceiling where our young players don't progress once they come to first team level. Daz Clark is only just showing his Cas form & you look at teams like Cas & Salford & Wakefield & the coaches are getting the best out of what players they have ,they are not spending big money on players . Myler & O'Brien have improved greatly since they moved to other clubs where the coaches had a bit of confidence in them.

Did Myler improve by going to the Catalans Dragons?

Well he's improved enough to get a job at Leeds .

I think part of the problem is the vast chasm between Academy and SL level. Someone like Patton is a good example. Whatever your view of his abilities, he outgrew the Academy level rapidly, had considerable potential but wasn't ready for SL. You could argue his lack of progress stems from being thrown in too early too young.

In the old days he'd have graduated to A team, where he'd have faced a more demanding combination of senior pros, squad players and similar level apprentices.

The only place for promising Wire players to go after the Academy is Rochdale, and this seems to be viewed as more of a punishment than anything. Certainly I can't recall anyone going there, ripping it up and being rewarded with first team rugby.

How did everyone afford to run an A team in pre-SL days with pre-SL finances but now claims it's an unaffordable luxury?

This doesn't seem to affect the youth development at Wigan or Leeds. Nah I think the problem is specific to Warrington.

It would be quite telling to list the output of Wigan, Leeds and Saints during that 25 years by means of comparison.

Here are just some of Wigan's.

Kris Radlinski, Simon Haughton, Sean Long, Andy Johnson, Darryl Cardiss, Paul Johnson, Rob Smyth, Jon Clarke, Lee Gilmour, Stephen Wild, Luke Robinson, Shaun Briscoe, Sean O'Loughlin, Kevin Brown, Gareth Hock, Harrison Hansen, Paul Prescott, Bryn Hargreaves, Darrell Goulding, Joel Tomkins, Mike McIlorum, Lee Mossop, Sam Tomkins, Josh Charnley, Liam Farrell, Stefan Marsh, Jack Hughes, Joe Mellor, Dom Crosby, Sam Powell, Matt Russell, Logan Tomkins, Joe Burgess, Ryan Hampshire, Dominic Manfredi, Lewis Tierney, George Williams, Ryan Sutton, Oliver Gildart, Tom Davies, Liam Marshall.

Good discussion so far. There are lots of issues.
My observations are based on experience a while back so be out of date (I hope they are) but are that:-

Warrington sign players based very strongly on physique and fitness. If you are not going to be 6'3" and 15 stone they are not interested. Kyle Eastmond and Joe Mellor are two players who could have been at the club. Often they seem to sign players who are early maturers and have peaked already. Players are signed for achievement not potential. (Sam Tomkins at 15 had two Warrington based players ahead of him at county level but was still growing up - and maybe one day will

)

They don't build enough skills. Lots of weights. Lots of fitness. (Easy to coach) But no large scale skills development. Targets are set for fitness, body fat, weights lifted, miles run but not for skills

Academy games are seen as about winning rather than a chance to build your game and your skills. Players look no different at 18 than at 15 - same flaws, same qualities - maybe this flows through to first team too. I think players learn to hide weaknesses rather than correct them

Players are signed who (generally) want to play rugby - they then get to play no games for a year or two are excluded from playing amateur rugby or even 5 a side with their mates. If you have hopes of playing rugby and don't play, you fall out of love with the game. Most who don't get a contract at the end of their academy time never play rugby again. Most are not Warrington supporters now

The club behave as if they own the players. Social life scrutinised, Club activities take priority. You must train every week and extras are encouraged. And for £60 a week. With a 10% chance of success. Work a day a week at Tesco or an evening in a bar and the lifestyle is better.

Players from outside the area get better deals to attract them to Warrington. They are not necessarily better players but Warrington assume that locals will be loyal.

If/once you get to first team, no one pushes your development - you are there to do a job and you do it and you stay - you don't and you are out. Academy coaches have done their job and first team coaches have a product to fill a gap. There is little support for getting the player to a higher level.

Just a thought or two.....

M

Well the club must have identified this as a problem and recruited Peter Riding, from Castleford, as Head of Youth. But I am confused with who is in charge of what here. https://warringtonwolves.com/performance-team/ We have a Head of Performance, then a Performance Manager. A head of youth, then 6 assistant u16 coaches. Jobs for the boys in 3 positions. Please tell me it's not Gary Chambers and his dad teaching u16 back play. The Wigan setup is very different with separate Performance and Rugby departments. They have Sean O'Loughlin (current international, club captain, multiple GF and CC, WCC winning club legend) working with the U19s.

Well the club must have identified this as a problem and recruited Peter Riding, from Castleford, as Head of Youth. But I am confused with who is in charge of what here. https://warringtonwolves.com/performance-team/ We have a Head of Performance, then a Performance Manager. A head of youth, then 6 assistant u16 coaches. Jobs for the boys in 3 positions. Please tell me it's not Gary Chambers and his dad teaching u16 back play. The Wigan setup is very different with separate Performance and Rugby departments. They have Sean O'Loughlin (current international, club captain, multiple GF and CC, WCC winning club legend) working with the U19s.

A real area of concern. Hopefully an area Price will be looking at.
Out of curiosity I wonder if young players look at that list and think they will have a better chance of being nurtured and developed elsewhere? Ben Currie being an exception.

Yes the young players must do that. If you had academy offers from Wigan, Salford and Warrington - where would you think you have the best opportunity to become a top player?

What is Salfords record like? Ratchford? Myler?

Myler came from Widnes .... replace with Théo Fages, Jordan Turner & Marc Sneyd

As soon as I posted it I realised there was only 1 place Myler could've come from!

niall evalds, the walne brothers.

Niall Evalds would be one of the first names on my carcass-scavenging list if Salford were to perish.

7 or 8 years ago you had an excellent Academy side, and were our (Wigan’s) main challengers. Seems to me your coaches are too reluctant to give the youngsters a chance at first team level, even if the established first teamers are off form.

A few interesting names in the England from 2011. Most of the Warrington players did make the grade.


2011 England Academy 38 man Squad

John Bateman (Bradford Bulls)
Michael Bishay (Harlequins RL)
Daniel Bridge (Wigan Warriors)
Alex Brown (Widnes Vikings)
Greg Burke (Wigan Warriors)
Liam Carberry (Wigan Warriors)
Jordan Chase (St Helens)
Daryl Clark (Castleford Tigers)
Jack Cockerham (Bradford Bulls)
Ben Crookes (Hull FC)
Ben Currie (Warrington Wolves)
Ben Evans (Warrington Wolves)
Rhys Evans (Warrington Wolves)
Thomas Gilmore (Widnes Vikings)
Bobbie Goulding (Warrington Wolves)
Robert Hawthorne (Bradford Bulls)
Daniel Jones (St Helens)
Josh Jones (St Helens)
Reece Lyne (Hull FC)
Liam McAvoy (Bradford Bulls)
Andrew Morris (Salford City Reds)
Adam O’Brien (Bradford Bulls)
Gene Ormsby (Warrington Wolves)
Jack Owens (Widnes Vikings)
Jay Rossi (Whitehaven RL)
Matthew Russell (Wigan Warriors)
Liam Salter (Hull KR)
Daniel Sarginson (Harlequins RL)
Declan Sephton-Hulme (Widnes Vikings)
Ryan Shaw (Warrington Wolves)
Louis Sheriff (Hull KR)
Brad Singleton (Leeds Rhinos)
Daniel Smith (Leeds Rhinos)
Jared Stewart (Leeds Rhinos)
Chris Taylor (Wigan Warriors)
Steve Ward (Leeds Rhinos)
Greg Wilde (St Helens)
Daniel Yates (St Helens)

That year goes against all the arguments in the thread that we can not produce talent. When you look at the 1st team appearances of the players at Saints, Wigan and Warrington I think we come out on top. Yes you can argue that apart from Currie non are world beaters, but it does prove that players are coming through and playing first team at Super League or Championship.

Only 1 from Warrington to make the grade.

The 2013 squads in full are:

England Academy 24-man squad (Professional and community clubs)

Alex Mellor (Bradford Bulls, Castleford Panthers)

Bobby Tyson Wilson (Hull FC, West Hull)

Curtis Naughton (Bradford Bulls, Dewsbury Celtic)

Edwin Okanga Ajwang (Salford City Reds, Siddal)

Elliott Morris (Huddersfield Giants, Meltham)

George Williams (Wigan Warriors, Ince Rose Bridge)

Greg Richards (St Helens, Barrow Island)

Jack Miller (Huddersfield Giants, Smallthorne Panthers)

Jake Connor (Huddersfield Giants, Siddal)

Joe Burgess (Wigan Warriors, Ince Rose Bridge)

Jordan Baldwinson (Leeds Rhinos, Hunslet Warriors)

Jordan Burns (Warrington Wolves, Kells ARLFC)

Jordan Harper (Leeds Rhinos, Normanton Knights)

Josh Casey (Bradford Bulls, Siddal)

Lewis Tierney (Wigan Warriors, Wigan St Pats)

Liam Sutcliffe (Leeds Rhinos, Hunslet Warriors)

Luke Thompson (St Helens, Pilkington Recs)

Nathan Conroy (Bradford Bulls, Bradford Dudley Hill)

Oliver Roberts (Bradford Bulls, Siddal)

Rob Lever (Wigan Warriors, Pilkington Recs)

Rob Mulhern (Leeds Rhinos, Castleford Panthers)

Ryan Hampshire (Wigan Warriors, Normanton Knights)

Ryan Sutton (Wigan Warriors, Wigan St Pats)

Tom Walker (Warrington Wolves, Broughton Red Rose)

England Youth 31-man squad (Professional and community clubs)

Aaron Smith (St Helens, Blackbrook)

Ash Goulding (Leeds Rhinos, Stanningley)

Brad Harrison (Hull FC, Skirlaugh Bulls)

Brad Parker (Hull FC, East Hull)

Charlie Pythian (Warrington Wolves, Latchford Albion)

Daniel Douglas (Leeds Rhinos, Drighlington)

Frazer Morris (Huddersfield Giants, St Josephs Sharks)

Harry Tyson Wilson (Hull FC, West Hull)

Harvey Livett (Warrington Wolves, Rylands Sharks)

Issac Noi (Wigan Warriors, Ince Rose Bridge)

Jack Etchells (Wigan Warriors, Oldham St Annes)

Jack Rush (Wigan Warriors, Rochdale Mayfield)

Jack Wells (Wigan Warriors, Folly Lane)

Jacob Ware (Leeds Rhinos, Westgate Wolves)

Jake Campbell (St Helens, Blackbrook)

Jake Moore (Wigan Warriors, Wath Brow Hornets)

James Brown (Castleford Tigers, Castleford Lock Lane)

Jordan Crowther (Wakefield Trinity Wildcats, Westgate Wolves)

Jordan Lane (Hull FC, West Hull)

Kameron Pearce Paul (London Broncos, Croydon Hurricanes)

Lewis Fairhurst (St Helens, Hindley)

Liam Cooper (St Helens, Blackbrook)

Liam Johnson (Huddersfield Giants, Newsome Panthers)

Max Jowitt (Wakefield Trinity Wildcats, Stanley Rangers)

Morgan Smith (Leeds Rhinos, Normanton Knights)

Reece Brunt (Warrington Wolves, Latchford Albion)

Roshane Johnson (London Broncos, Medway Dragons)

Ryan Haughton (Wigan Warriors, Blackbrook)

Ryan Ince (Widnes Vikings, Widnes Moorfield)

Sam Hallas (Leeds Rhinos, Stanningley)

Will Gledhill (Huddersfield Giants, Wakefield Westgate)