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| Quote ="Red Preacher"Just replied.
Just found out something of broader topical interest.
Following the Hillsborough disaster, the Taylor report addressed 'endemic hooliganism, and overcrowding on terraces' in rundown stadia throughout sport. Evidence suggesting the above was a problem in RL too, was based on just a single visit to a rugby league event. A 1989/1990 Salford match!!!
It was this report and its financial implications that contributed to some clubs, such as Swinton, being forced into selling their rundown grounds. Thus, alleged behaviour of Salford fans apparently contributed to the demise of Swinton. Of course, this suggestion is hardly truthful, as many more factors, that are perhaps a tad less biased than the Taylor report, will have impacted on clubs like Swinton.'"
New ground safety legislation was already in place before Hillsborough. This was following the Bradford City fire disaster in 1985 and the Popperwell enquiry. If I remember correctly I think Swinton were forced to demolish the wooden seating stand at the back of the terracing on the townsend road side. I remember Salford having to spend a small fortune on the Willows to get a ground safety certificate.
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| Quote ="theredshed"I remember Salford having to spend a small fortune on the Willows to get a ground safety certificate.'"
Yep. If memory serves, there's a bit about this in Graham Morris's book.
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Quote ="Chico"There was an article in New Society in the early 80s that followed Leeds United's Service Crew (they had also been featured on ITV at a similar time - News at Ten or World In Action, something like that). The RL crowd at Headingley was shown as an example of a more sedate family atmosphere - a world away from football. That said, there's stuff in this book, although a pretty poor source, I've heard to be true: www.amazon.co.uk/The-Family-Game ... 1903158621. You only have to ask a couple of the lads who've been following Salford for a while and you'll get a few stories!'"
A slight deviation from my topic but well worth a read. Interestingly, so much of what is recorded in rugby league literature, emanates via 'word of mouth,' 'folklore' etc etc.
Imo, this is a major (although perhaps unsurprising when you consider the origins and demographic of the sport), downfall.
Quote ="mmp"I'd start with Framing the Future from 1994 - good luck finding a copy!'" Quote ="Iain"Quote ="mmp"I'd start with Framing the Future from 1994 - good luck finding a copy!'"
I have a copy (somewhere).'"
Thanks for that mmp.
Iain - Any chance I can borrow that? If you can find it?
Quote ="theredshed"Quote ="Red Preacher"Just replied.
Just found out something of broader topical interest.
Following the Hillsborough disaster, the Taylor report addressed 'endemic hooliganism, and overcrowding on terraces' in rundown stadia throughout sport. Evidence suggesting the above was a problem in RL too, was based on just a single visit to a rugby league event. A 1989/1990 Salford match!!!
It was this report and its financial implications that contributed to some clubs, such as Swinton, being forced into selling their rundown grounds. Thus, alleged behaviour of Salford fans apparently contributed to the demise of Swinton. Of course, this suggestion is hardly truthful, as many more factors, that are perhaps a tad less biased than the Taylor report, will have impacted on clubs like Swinton.'"
New ground safety legislation was already in place before Hillsborough. This was following the Bradford City fire disaster in 1985 and the Popperwell enquiry. If I remember correctly I think Swinton were forced to demolish the wooden seating stand at the back of the terracing on the townsend road side. I remember Salford having to spend a small fortune on the Willows to get a ground safety certificate.'"
Indeed it was and it had a huge impact on many RL clubs (and football of course). Although according to Tony Collins, further legislation followed the 'Taylor report' which in effect ended stadia such as Station Road.
Interestingly, Collins also links the legislation (Following the 'Popplewell Inquiry' into the Bradford City disaster and subsequent inclusion of RL stadiums under the jurisdiction of the 1975 Safety of Sports Grounds act) to the demise of Central Park in which their capacity was cut from 30,000 to 12,000. I can only assume that the Taylor Report further damaged (excuse the pun) the life of Central Park.
Of course, RL, is arguably guilty of a failure to invest in stadia during more profitable eras. There seems to be naive and ignorant 'wait and somethin'll turn up' attitude rife in the executive centres of the game. The ramifications of such have arguably contributed to run-down, beyond repair, expensive to run grounds such as the Willows.
If only clubs had taken better care themselves when they could, the game as a whole might well possess far more assets and carry far more power than it currently does.
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Quote ="Chico"There was an article in New Society in the early 80s that followed Leeds United's Service Crew (they had also been featured on ITV at a similar time - News at Ten or World In Action, something like that). The RL crowd at Headingley was shown as an example of a more sedate family atmosphere - a world away from football. That said, there's stuff in this book, although a pretty poor source, I've heard to be true: www.amazon.co.uk/The-Family-Game ... 1903158621. You only have to ask a couple of the lads who've been following Salford for a while and you'll get a few stories!'"
A slight deviation from my topic but well worth a read. Interestingly, so much of what is recorded in rugby league literature, emanates via 'word of mouth,' 'folklore' etc etc.
Imo, this is a major (although perhaps unsurprising when you consider the origins and demographic of the sport), downfall.
Quote ="mmp"I'd start with Framing the Future from 1994 - good luck finding a copy!'" Quote ="Iain"Quote ="mmp"I'd start with Framing the Future from 1994 - good luck finding a copy!'"
I have a copy (somewhere).'"
Thanks for that mmp.
Iain - Any chance I can borrow that? If you can find it?
Quote ="theredshed"Quote ="Red Preacher"Just replied.
Just found out something of broader topical interest.
Following the Hillsborough disaster, the Taylor report addressed 'endemic hooliganism, and overcrowding on terraces' in rundown stadia throughout sport. Evidence suggesting the above was a problem in RL too, was based on just a single visit to a rugby league event. A 1989/1990 Salford match!!!
It was this report and its financial implications that contributed to some clubs, such as Swinton, being forced into selling their rundown grounds. Thus, alleged behaviour of Salford fans apparently contributed to the demise of Swinton. Of course, this suggestion is hardly truthful, as many more factors, that are perhaps a tad less biased than the Taylor report, will have impacted on clubs like Swinton.'"
New ground safety legislation was already in place before Hillsborough. This was following the Bradford City fire disaster in 1985 and the Popperwell enquiry. If I remember correctly I think Swinton were forced to demolish the wooden seating stand at the back of the terracing on the townsend road side. I remember Salford having to spend a small fortune on the Willows to get a ground safety certificate.'"
Indeed it was and it had a huge impact on many RL clubs (and football of course). Although according to Tony Collins, further legislation followed the 'Taylor report' which in effect ended stadia such as Station Road.
Interestingly, Collins also links the legislation (Following the 'Popplewell Inquiry' into the Bradford City disaster and subsequent inclusion of RL stadiums under the jurisdiction of the 1975 Safety of Sports Grounds act) to the demise of Central Park in which their capacity was cut from 30,000 to 12,000. I can only assume that the Taylor Report further damaged (excuse the pun) the life of Central Park.
Of course, RL, is arguably guilty of a failure to invest in stadia during more profitable eras. There seems to be naive and ignorant 'wait and somethin'll turn up' attitude rife in the executive centres of the game. The ramifications of such have arguably contributed to run-down, beyond repair, expensive to run grounds such as the Willows.
If only clubs had taken better care themselves when they could, the game as a whole might well possess far more assets and carry far more power than it currently does.
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On the subject of ground safety and Hillsborough I was astonished to learn recently that a similar incident happened on the Leppings Lane terracing in 1981. The video below shows overcrowding on the terracing where 38 Tottenham supporters were crushed and injured at an FA Cup semi-final between Spurs and Wolves. They say but for the intervention of the police to open the pitch perimeter fencing gates a similar incident to 1989 would undoubtedly have occurred.
The overcrowding at this particular match was rumoured to be caused by turnstile operators allowing ticketless fans into the ground for cash at an all ticket fixture.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtzHVe2mEN0
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On the subject of ground safety and Hillsborough I was astonished to learn recently that a similar incident happened on the Leppings Lane terracing in 1981. The video below shows overcrowding on the terracing where 38 Tottenham supporters were crushed and injured at an FA Cup semi-final between Spurs and Wolves. They say but for the intervention of the police to open the pitch perimeter fencing gates a similar incident to 1989 would undoubtedly have occurred.
The overcrowding at this particular match was rumoured to be caused by turnstile operators allowing ticketless fans into the ground for cash at an all ticket fixture.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtzHVe2mEN0
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| I'd be careful saying legislation ended those old grounds. lots more was going on and don't forget - football clubs didn't start selling grounds on mass so there must have been other factors in play. First - the expectations of fans was changing and second, those old grounds were just that - they were old! The costs of maintaining them were huge at a time when the revenue base of the clubs was at a low point.
If anyone can remember the Sheddings in Oldham and can think back to how there were banks and all sorts to navigate through just to get up to a stand - and then think about the costs of maintaining that - you start to see just how much it would have cost to turn such a ground into a safe and modern stadium. If I'm right - half of the standing space was closed when we last played there?
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Quote ="theredshed"On the subject of ground safety and Hillsborough I was astonished to learn recently that a similar incident happened on the Leppings Lane terracing in 1981. The video below shows overcrowding on the terracing where 38 Tottenham supporters were crushed and injured at an FA Cup semi-final between Spurs and Wolves. They say but for the intervention of the police to open the pitch perimeter fencing gates a similar incident to 1989 would undoubtedly have occurred.
The overcrowding at this particular match was rumoured to be caused by turnstile operators allowing ticketless fans into the ground for cash at an all ticket fixture.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtzHVe2mEN0'"
United went there in February 1989 and were lucky to escape a disaster as well - I've spoken to people who were there and they said they've never been so scared at a match. The Leppings Lane End was a death trap.
And it's all well and good saying that ground regulations were in place up to and at the time of the disaster - but the fact that Hillsborough hadn't have a valid safety certificate since 1981 shows you how well they were implemented. No one gave a sh*t about football fans and, to an extent, sporting fans full stop.
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Quote ="theredshed"On the subject of ground safety and Hillsborough I was astonished to learn recently that a similar incident happened on the Leppings Lane terracing in 1981. The video below shows overcrowding on the terracing where 38 Tottenham supporters were crushed and injured at an FA Cup semi-final between Spurs and Wolves. They say but for the intervention of the police to open the pitch perimeter fencing gates a similar incident to 1989 would undoubtedly have occurred.
The overcrowding at this particular match was rumoured to be caused by turnstile operators allowing ticketless fans into the ground for cash at an all ticket fixture.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtzHVe2mEN0'"
United went there in February 1989 and were lucky to escape a disaster as well - I've spoken to people who were there and they said they've never been so scared at a match. The Leppings Lane End was a death trap.
And it's all well and good saying that ground regulations were in place up to and at the time of the disaster - but the fact that Hillsborough hadn't have a valid safety certificate since 1981 shows you how well they were implemented. No one gave a sh*t about football fans and, to an extent, sporting fans full stop.
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| I think the ground sales of places like Station Road and the Watersheddings was a combination of debt, land values and increasing maintenance costs.
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Quote ="theredshed"On the subject of ground safety and Hillsborough I was astonished to learn recently that a similar incident happened on the Leppings Lane terracing in 1981. The video below shows overcrowding on the terracing where 38 Tottenham supporters were crushed and injured at an FA Cup semi-final between Spurs and Wolves. They say but for the intervention of the police to open the pitch perimeter fencing gates a similar incident to 1989 would undoubtedly have occurred.
The overcrowding at this particular match was rumoured to be caused by turnstile operators allowing ticketless fans into the ground for cash at an all ticket fixture.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtzHVe2mEN0'"
Frightening stuff. It begs the question of why action wasn't taken until after the Hillsborough disaster, some 8 years later?
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Quote ="theredshed"On the subject of ground safety and Hillsborough I was astonished to learn recently that a similar incident happened on the Leppings Lane terracing in 1981. The video below shows overcrowding on the terracing where 38 Tottenham supporters were crushed and injured at an FA Cup semi-final between Spurs and Wolves. They say but for the intervention of the police to open the pitch perimeter fencing gates a similar incident to 1989 would undoubtedly have occurred.
The overcrowding at this particular match was rumoured to be caused by turnstile operators allowing ticketless fans into the ground for cash at an all ticket fixture.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtzHVe2mEN0'"
Frightening stuff. It begs the question of why action wasn't taken until after the Hillsborough disaster, some 8 years later?
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| mmp- Good points. In this, it could be argued that the death of grounds like Station Rd may well have been the incentive clubs like Swinton needed to progress. However, as I've said, investment in your own infrastructure, when financially able to, is surely the way to avoid future problems. (Headingley stadium is perhaps the best example of this)
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| Quote ="Red Preacher"mmp- Good points. In this, it could be argued that the death of grounds like Station Rd may well have been the incentive clubs like Swinton needed to progress. However, as I've said, investment in your own infrastructure, when financially able to, is surely the way to avoid future problems. (Headingley stadium is perhaps the best example of this)'"
Leeds have been very shrewd in making ground improvements on a regular basis over the years. I wonder though if being part of the whole Headingley setup (that includs the cricket ground) has helped to make this more financially viable?
Headingley has also been used many times over several years for Internationals, Yorkshire Cups and Challenge Cup Semi's. Perhaps the Leeds club have a policy of reinvesting ground rental revenues for stadium improvements?
I also believe that the latest stand they built behind the posts cost the Rhino's very little due to the college using classrooms built into the back of the stand.
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| Quote ="theredshed"I think the ground sales of places like Station Road and the Watersheddings was a combination of debt, land values and increasing maintenance costs.'"
Yes they were two of the clubs, silmilar to ourselves, who were hit financially during seasons spent in division 2. Around that time you played 14 or so home games if memory serves me right against the likes of Nottingham, Trafford, Fulham and Chorley. Swinton for example had a very active commercial scene but I imagine suffered big losses in the 2nd division as their operations was geared for top level rugby. Lots of clubs only had one asset, we were fortunate we never got shafted by our owners.
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| Quote ="theredshed"Leeds have been very shrewd in making ground improvements on a regular basis over the years. I wonder though if being part of the whole Headingley setup (that includs the cricket ground) has helped to make this more financially viable?
Headingley has also been used many times over several years for Internationals, Yorkshire Cups and Challenge Cup Semi's. Perhaps the Leeds club have a policy of reinvesting ground rental revenues for stadium improvements?
I also believe that the latest stand they built behind the posts cost the Rhino's very little due to the college using classrooms built into the back of the stand.'"
Leeds' relationship with Yorkshire CC as part of the Headingley setup is almost certainly a financially sound arrangement.
As business models go, Leeds have led the way for a long time. Linking up with Leeds Met' is yet another example of such.
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| I wrote an essay along similar lines about changing to summer rugby and the impact of Sky Sports on the game when I was at University. Get hold of a book called To Jerusalem And Back by Simon Kelner, it will be very useful for your purposes. I wrote to every club in the league back in 1997/8 when I did it and the only replies I got were from Castleford and St. Helens. Richard Wright at Castleford wrote me a letter 3 pages long. If you want to get in touch with anyone, both clubs were very helpful to me then, so I'll suggest them as a place to start. Good luck with your work.
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| Quote ="Red Preacher"mmp- Good points. In this, it could be argued that the death of grounds like Station Rd may well have been the incentive clubs like Swinton needed to progress. However, as I've said, investment in your own infrastructure, when financially able to, is surely the way to avoid future problems. (Headingley stadium is perhaps the best example of this)'"
when i drafted that message I actually put a bit more then took it out...the point i was going to put was that we should be thankful that money was invested in building the North Stand at the Willows when it was...the Willows needed lots of money spent on just maintaining it over the last 15 years (which was an ongoing buden on the club!) but maybe not the huge costs that would have been needed to maintain/upgrade many other grounds (some of which - Station Road as an example - were much bigger grounds and hence costs would be greater still!).
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| Quote ="Red Preacher"Leeds' relationship with Yorkshire CC as part of the Headingley setup is almost certainly a financially sound arrangement.
As business models go, Leeds have led the way for a long time. Linking up with Leeds Met' is yet another example of such.'"
[url=http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=145033Leeds Met is close to bankruptcy[/url
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| Quote ="Stew2"[url=http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=145033Leeds Met is close to bankruptcy[/url'"
Hardly surprising considering they helped finance a multi-million pound grandstand in return for a few classrooms. A couple of rented portacabins would have been a much cheaper alternative.
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| Quote ="mmp"Quote ="Red Preacher"mmp- Good points. In this, it could be argued that the death of grounds like Station Rd may well have been the incentive clubs like Swinton needed to progress. However, as I've said, investment in your own infrastructure, when financially able to, is surely the way to avoid future problems. (Headingley stadium is perhaps the best example of this)'"
when i drafted that message I actually put a bit more then took it out...the point i was going to put was that we should be thankful that money was invested in building the North Stand at the Willows when it was...the Willows needed lots of money spent on just maintaining it over the last 15 years (which was an ongoing buden on the club!) but maybe not the huge costs that would have been needed to maintain/upgrade many other grounds (some of which - Station Road as an example - were much bigger grounds and hence costs would be greater still!).'"
So perhaps Salford have invested when they can. The problem being that they seldom could?
Quote ="Repo"I wrote an essay along similar lines about changing to summer rugby and the impact of Sky Sports on the game when I was at University. Get hold of a book called To Jerusalem And Back by Simon Kelner, it will be very useful for your purposes. I wrote to every club in the league back in 1997/8 when I did it and the only replies I got were from Castleford and St. Helens. Richard Wright at Castleford wrote me a letter 3 pages long. If you want to get in touch with anyone, both clubs were very helpful to me then, so I'll suggest them as a place to start. Good luck with your work.'"
That's very helpful. Thank you very much!
It's encouraging to see that some clubs are prepared to engage with academics. I've certainly had some doors closed in my face although. I must knock harder and on more doors!
There certainly seems to be a degree of mistrust regarding academic researchers. But, there's real potential, imo, for rugby league and academia (especially the social sciences) to form mutually beneficial and complimentary relationships.
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| Quote ="Stew2"[url=http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=145033Leeds Met is close to bankruptcy[/url'"
No, I missed that. Thanks.
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| There's also a lot of unrest amongst Yorkshire CCC's Members that there's a spanking new facility in the ground that they can only use a couple of times a season when the powers that be deem them worthy. Looking at the way Lancs have treated their Members recently and the use of The Point, I can understand that completely.
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| Quote ="Red Preacher"A slight deviation from my topic but well worth a read. Interestingly, so much of what is recorded in rugby league literature, emanates via 'word of mouth,' 'folklore' etc etc.
Imo, this is a major (although perhaps unsurprising when you consider the origins and demographic of the sport), downfall.
'"
Again slightly off topic (but a point worth making) RL is unique amongst sports for the way its history is recorded. I think I'm right in saying no books, or maybe two at most, (save for official handbooks) were published about the sport until well after the second world war. I think Risman's autobiography was one of the first ones published and it slowly built from there with people like EM Waring. Similarly, no official records existed for the sport until Irvin Saxton and the rest got started compliling them in the 1970s. It just wasn't viewed as a necessity which again says things about how the sport viewed itself. There are still games in Salford's history where a complete record of the team that played doesn't exist.
I don't think this should be viewed as a negative though, on the contrary it adds something to the way people look at and remember the sport.
Back on topic, the two books by Geoffrey Moorhouse are a good resource for your project as well. At the George and other essays on Rugby League and The People's Game I think they are called. Both written just before Super League and touch on some of the subjects that will no doubt be covered by your essay. In one part he derides daft nicknames on clubs and say it would be awful in Rugby League. Thankfully he died shortly after. Moorhouse is a cracking writer as well.
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| Quote ="Walshovski"In one part he derides daft nicknames on clubs and say it would be awful in Rugby League. Thankfully he died shortly after.'"
Were you his undertaker?
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| Quote ="GT"There's also a lot of unrest amongst Yorkshire CCC's Members that there's a spanking new facility in the ground that they can only use a couple of times a season when the powers that be deem them worthy. Looking at the way Lancs have treated their Members recently and the use of The Point, I can understand that completely.'"
What exactly is the arrangement at Headingley? And what exactly is the new facility used for (besides terracing)?
Oh, 3rd question, highlighting my lack of knowledge yet further, what has happened at Lancs?
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| Quote ="Walshovski"Again slightly off topic (but a point worth making) RL is unique amongst sports for the way its history is recorded. I think I'm right in saying no books, or maybe two at most, (save for official handbooks) were published about the sport until well after the second world war. I think Risman's autobiography was one of the first ones published and it slowly built from there with people like EM Waring. Similarly, no official records existed for the sport until Irvin Saxton and the rest got started compliling them in the 1970s. It just wasn't viewed as a necessity which again says things about how the sport viewed itself. There are still games in Salford's history where a complete record of the team that played doesn't exist.
I don't think this should be viewed as a negative though, on the contrary it adds something to the way people look at and remember the sport.
Back on topic, the two books by Geoffrey Moorhouse are a good resource for your project as well. At the George and other essays on Rugby League and The People's Game I think they are called. Both written just before Super League and touch on some of the subjects that will no doubt be covered by your essay. In one part he derides daft nicknames on clubs and say it would be awful in Rugby League. Thankfully he died shortly after. Moorhouse is a cracking writer as well.'"
You're not far off there. According to Tony Collins, Risman's guide to rules of Rugby League (I can't remember the exact title) was the first book written on RL, although I believe it was written in 1937. I'll check that and get back to you.
I agree that it isn't necessarily a negative although the lack of literature, in particular academic literature, has certainly resulted in a lack of a voice in some important circles. The power of the written word is dominant in western cultures and as such, RL is somewhat incapacitated. However, the culture of RL in this respect is unique in that it can be viewed as a positive. If anything, it is a reflection of the folklore culture of the game. Which I see as like a castle or fort; culturally rich but limited in terms of potential wealth-creation and expansion by its own impermeable walls. I guess you're saying the same?
Cheers for those resources. I'm sure they will be perfect for what I'm trying to demonstrate.
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| Quote ="Walshovski"I don't think this should be viewed as a negative though, on the contrary it adds something to the way people look at and remember the sport.'"
Just shows the progression of the sentiment for sport from a pastime to, in extreme cases, a matter of life or death. You could say early rugby league stalwarts were more likely to be averse to chronicling the game because they sought to disown anything that happened before the meeting at The George Hotel. This jettisoning of history is an issue with early books on RL club histories.
By the way a second-hand copy of Moorhouses's [iAt The George[/i is available for 1p on Amazon.
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| Quote ="Chico"
By the way a second-hand copy of Moorhouses's [iAt The George[/i is available for 1p on Amazon.'"
Bargain. On my doormat by Tuesday.
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