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| Quote ="Early Bath"I think I`m right in saying that in the NRL there is a Carry forward of unspent salary cap from previous year(s). In which case surely the Doctor has a very good point.'"
My guesstimate is Salford have spent approximately £6-7 million less on player wages over the 15 seasons we have competed in Superleague.
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| He said he won't be a sugar daddy so it'll be the Club racking up any debt which is as it should be.
If the whole project fails,and I don't think it will, then we are no worse off than we were before he stopped us going tits up,and he will have given it his best shot.
As to the salary cap,and as a lifelong supporter,I can't see any good reason why we should be made a special case.
If it increases for all clubs,then that's obviously a different matter
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| For the cap to be increased how many clubs would need to vote it through?
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| Quote ="middleman"Salford have never spent to the salary cap in their history in SL.'"
From what I garnered from Wilky's meeting at the church, we (they/he/the overdraft) spent £450,000 over the usual budget on player salaries for the 2011 season, probably taking us to the cap. Bloody frightening I know.
Quote ="BartonFlyer"Dr K has created a new company and injected cash, by what means, until the first accounts are published none of us know. Presumably as share capital and/or loan capital, I would rather doubt whether any money is in there as a "gift", how many businesses do you know funded by gifts?'"
Even if it's a 'gift' in all but name it still has to be accounted for as BF says. Otherwise you're knocking on the gates of bung city.
Quote ="theredshed"For the cap to be increased how many clubs would need to vote it through?'"
If it's like other voting decisions, a small majority is required. 8 would do it. But I also imagine the RFL could veto it.
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| I don't agree with raising the salary cap en bloc. One of the reasons it was introduced was to save clubs from themselves — their recklessness with keeping up with the Joneses, or rather the Whelans and Caisleys. I think you're more likely to see dispensations. Let's say allowing clubs to have up to three players with limitless earning potential. However, those clubs would need to jump through hoops to prove how they would finance the deals. And they mustn't be reliant on factors that could jeopardise the future of the club.
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| I have misgivings about the cap as a concept. Previously it never really concerned us so I've never voiced them but:
1: Doesn't the very idea of saying to an employee that there is an upper limit on what you can earn go against all ideas of freedom of labour? If the employer is willing to pay whatever, then is it even lawful for a third party (the RFL) to say that the employee cannot receive it?
2: It's all very well saying that the cap is there to "save the clubs from themselves" but in what other businesses would this be considered acceptable? If all the supermarkets got together to agree amongst themselves exactly how much they would pay, then I'm sure the Office of Fair Trading would be crying foul pretty quickly.
3: Having an artificial construct like the salary cap in place just encourages dishonesty and "creative accounting" - surely an open, honest approach with disclosure of employee costs through the normal accounting procedures is preferable?
4: Having a cap just encourages other, richer sports to poach RL talent and discourages moves in the opposite direction.
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| Quote ="BartonFlyer"1: Doesn't the very idea of saying to an employee that there is an upper limit on what you can earn go against all ideas of freedom of labour? If the employer is willing to pay whatever, then is it even lawful for a third party (the RFL) to say that the employee cannot receive it?'"
Quote ="BartonFlyer"2: It's all very well saying that the cap is there to "save the clubs from themselves" but in what other businesses would this be considered acceptable? If all the supermarkets got together to agree amongst themselves exactly how much they would pay, then I'm sure the Office of Fair Trading would be crying foul pretty quickly.'"
I suppose so but I guess it would take someone to challenge the system through some legal channel, potentially making themselves very unpopular in the process. You have think why in the NFL, a sport awash with corporate money, many aspects and artifices are still managed centrally by the ruling body
Quote ="BartonFlyer"4: Having a cap just encourages other, richer sports to poach RL talent and discourages moves in the opposite direction.'"
Probably. In the inter-war years, rugby league clubs took advantage of football's maximum wage and signing-on fee restrictions. Gus Risman might not have signed for Salford if it weren't for the fact we could offer him the most money (more than Tottenham Hotspur could anyway). Current journos are expecting Sam Tomkins to sign for an NRL or union club for similar reasons. I remember the RFL having some 'scheme' to keep talent such as Kieron Cunningham in the game, but I don't know the particulars about it.
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| Think the easy solution is as the Doc has said to allow each club a player (or more) off cap with their wages and then for say the club in question to have the funds too pay the players salary for each season of the contract into a fund held by the RFL to prevent the clubs over stretching.
You'd think there is a scope for clubs to source a big sponsor for these players thus not making an impact on there own finances.
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| Yes,that would be ideal,one player outside the cap.
Isn't that what happened to keep Tomkins from Union?
I think it works like that in MLS,which is how Beckham was financed.
All the other stuff about Caps being anti this ,that or the other,is irrelevant. We have a cap and we must adhere to the same rules as the others
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| Quote ="BogBrushHead"
Back on topic ..... does he really not know how to get 'round the salary cap? The RFL leaves holes in the rules you could drive a Lambo through .... even an orange one !!!'"
Would that be using the well known Warrington clause?
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| I've viewed this from every angle and yes to a certain degree the cap does keep the game a little bit more financially safer but nothing will make it completely financially safe just look at Bradford Bulls. but on the other hand European Rugby League is now being left behind by Football,(Championship) Rugby Union, and even cricket. not to mention the NRL.
Now the RFL have to think properly here if they really want (MANCHESTER) to embrace Rugby League they need a top MANCHESTER team playing within its elite league, Salford propping up the table year in year out isnt going to entice people from either Salford or Manchester, Dr Koukash knows this and it's the reason he's applying for Salford to be given special dispensation for a couple of years to grow the game in the MANCHESTER area. Because let's face it Salford as a city isn't in the best shape at the moment and can't be used solely as the pool of people we need to get to games, manchester, Trafford, stretford and even Cheshire need to be targeted, these people are so used to sporting success within their areas such as Man Utd, Man City, Lancashire Cricket, Sale Sharks and even back in the days of Mancheter Storm ice hockey and Manchester Giants basketball all have edured championship success in their recent history and have all at some point had top draw crowds, now for Salford to do this we to have to be challenging and winning trophies too. To attract the bandwagon supporters which every top club ha, we need to be worth following and Koukash is putting over to the RFL a similar situation Melbourne storm have in Australia, a sporting club who are in a hotbed of rival sports the only way they compete is to be given an increased salary cap limit compared to other Rugby hotbeds like Sydney it seems to be working for them so I think the RFL should give Salford a chance to shine now it ACTUALLY has the ammunition to do so. It's over to the RFL to make the decision.
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| Quote ="RED LEAGUE"I've viewed this from every angle and yes to a certain degree the cap does keep the game a little bit more financially safer but nothing will make it completely financially safe just look at Bradford Bulls. but on the other hand European Rugby League is now being left behind by Football,(Championship) Rugby Union, and even cricket. not to mention the NRL.
Now the RFL have to think properly here if they really want (MANCHESTER) to embrace Rugby League they need a top MANCHESTER team playing within its elite league, Salford propping up the table year in year out isnt going to entice people from either Salford or Manchester, Dr Koukash knows this and it's the reason he's applying for Salford to be given special dispensation for a couple of years to grow the game in the MANCHESTER area. Because let's face it Salford as a city isn't in the best shape at the moment and can't be used solely as the pool of people we need to get to games, manchester, Trafford, stretford and even Cheshire need to be targeted, these people are so used to sporting success within their areas such as Man Utd, Man City, Lancashire Cricket, Sale Sharks and even back in the days of Mancheter Storm ice hockey and Manchester Giants basketball all have edured championship success in their recent history and have all at some point had top draw crowds, now for Salford to do this we to have to be challenging and winning trophies too. To attract the bandwagon supporters which every top club ha, we need to be worth following and Koukash is putting over to the RFL a similar situation Melbourne storm have in Australia, a sporting club who are in a hotbed of rival sports the only way they compete is to be given an increased salary cap limit compared to other Rugby hotbeds like Sydney it seems to be working for them so I think the RFL should give Salford a chance to shine now it ACTUALLY has the ammunition to do so. It's over to the RFL to make the decision.'"
Excellent post. If RL wants a significant presence in Manchester, in London then provided somebody is prepared to foot the financial bill these club need to be given the freedom to make a significant impact.
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| Quote ="Michigan red"Would that be using the well known Warrington clause?'"
Wire's financial stability has been applauded by the RFL as a sound business model - but it's backed up by decent crowds and the revenues from those crowds find their way to the players .... as it should. Relying on Sugar-Daddy handouts on the other hand, always ends in failure.
It's quite hard to miss a bright orange Lambo parked at certain SL games ..... but it aint a Wire one!
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| I would be astonished if this request was even put to vote, let alone clubs agreeing to it. Clubs will always vote based on self interest and things such as this or putting the game as a whole or the International team first won't happen.
Personally I think it would be a bad direction to go in because any big improvement or future success would be attributed to the special allowance and very few people would give Salford any credit. As I said yesterday there are ways around this cap such as providing a far superior working environment and providing the best coaching/backroom setup.
As other people have suggested a compromise or solution could be to allow clubs to have one or two highly marketable players excluded from the 1.65m salary cap. For instance what could a Sonny Bill Williams do for raising the profile of Superleague?
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| By raising the cap I think I would change our game to be almost football agent status with so called lesser players wanting more money.
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| Quote ="Warrington Wolf"By raising the cap I think I would change our game to be almost football agent status with so called lesser players wanting more money.'"
All the more reason to keep the cap where it is but consider the idea of two 'elite players' per club being exempt. Elite players Superleague can't afford to lose like Tomkins or to help attract higher quality NRL stars who could put more bums on seats and enhance our competition.
If this was implimented an RFL panel could be set up to determine if a player or potential signing qualifies for Elite status. Otherwise clubs would just put forward their highest two earners to allow them to spend more money on non elite players. The criteria for ‘Elite Status’ could be the player being under a certain age, having International experience and having a very marketable profile. etc.
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| Not sure where I stand on this to be honest, my only question would be who is it down to to decide who's an 'elite player'? There is also the risk of it causing dressing rifts with non elite players who are performing better than the supposed elite ones but getting paid much less.
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| Quote ="Happy Red"Not sure where I stand on this to be honest, my only question would be who is it down to to decide who's an 'elite player'? There is also the risk of it causing dressing rifts with non elite players who are performing better than the supposed elite ones but getting paid much less.'"
Why would clubs need to name and make public the elite players? Let people presume who's elite or not and allow the RFL to police it privately.
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| That's always been the case.
Forget the term Elite player for a moment.
Go back to David Watkins,he was paid more than the rest and I bet there was some resentment with his team mates.
It's the same in any walk of life,the politics of envy.
The best way to deal with this is to let your highest paid player,or two perhaps,be exempt from the cap.
The other players would be in the same position as they are now.
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| Quote ="theredshed"Why would clubs need to name and make public the elite players? Let people presume who's elite or not.'"
Think he was meaning 'What are the criteria for a player to be labelled Elite? How do you measure a players ability to give them a label? Are they simply good or great? And one man's villain is another's hero. People constantly disagree on players ability from Chairmen to the terraces.' How do you make that decision?
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| Quote ="Bonita Red"
The best way to deal with this is to let your highest paid player,or two perhaps,be exempt from the cap.
The other players would be in the same position as they are now.'"
Would the 'other players' agents view it this way? In their eyes each club would then have potentially an extra say £150,000 to £300,000 available to spend on the cap and this could lead to agents trying to get their mitts on some it when their players contracts are up for renewal. By keeping the elite player status private the agents would be left guessing if a club has extra money to spend under the cap.
Quote ="TheButcher"Think he was meaning 'What are the criteria for a player to be labelled Elite? How do you measure a players ability to give them a label? Are they simply good or great? And one man's villain is another's hero. People constantly disagree on players ability from Chairmen to the terraces.' How do you make that decision?'"
I mentioned some criteria in a previous post.
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| Quote ="theredshed". By keeping the elite player status private the agents would be left guessing if a club has extra money to spend under the cap.
.'"
That's what I was saying,just allow the Clubs finance people to exclude the two top earners.
No one will know who they are,any more than they do at the moment,but money will always come out in the dressing room
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| Quote ="Bonita Red"That's what I was saying,just allow the Clubs finance people to exclude the two top earners.
No one will know who they are,any more than they do at the moment,but money will always come out in the dressing room'"
I'm with you now. This way you wouldn't need an RFL panel to determine if a player qualifies or not. Even better idea.
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| Sorry about using the term gift earlier on. I know it's not a financially accurate description. But a financial gift would be a debt converted to shares in the case of a sports club.
The debt is not held against the club and so a capital injection of £1million each year, converted into shares to fund the extra player money needed is for all intents and purposes a gift of £1million as the club will never have to repay it. Only a new owner would need to buy the shares and they would pay the going rate for those.
That is what I meant by a gift.
The alternative is a loan from the Dr. which would require Salford to grow it's revenue. Whilst not impossible. My point was Salford where struggling to repay loans when spending at below cap level. The revenue increases would need to be huge to repay loans not just at cap level, but at an increased cap level.
Anyway back to the cap. I would prefer a break even rule. You get a 3 year licence, so over the course of that licence there is a 3 year break even rule. You could bust the bank in year 1 to invest in the squad, so long as you could get to break over the full 3 years.
Failure to do so would be so many points off your next licence application.
That way the good Dr. could offer every play from Tomkins to Cameron Smith £1m each to play for Salford in 2014. They may just be 1 year contracts to give him that boost, but then so long as he could break even by the end of the licence that would be fine.
It does not put a cap on player wages, the club can pay out as much as it can afford. But it also adds protection against going bust as the club has to break even.
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| Quote ="bewareshadows"
Anyway back to the cap. I would prefer a break even rule. You get a 3 year licence, so over the course of that licence there is a 3 year break even rule. You could bust the bank in year 1 to invest in the squad, so long as you could get to break over the full 3 years.
Failure to do so would be so many points off your next licence application.
That way the good Dr. could offer every play from Tomkins to Cameron Smith £1m each to play for Salford in 2014. They may just be 1 year contracts to give him that boost, but then so long as he could break even by the end of the licence that would be fine.
It does not put a cap on player wages, the club can pay out as much as it can afford. But it also adds protection against going bust as the club has to break even.'"
In response Mr Shadows, are you really advocating that if the cap is increased to £2.1m that a club can spend £6.3m in Year 1 and recoup £4.2m in years 2 and 3, "break even" as you put it? A massive gamble surely and certainly not one that "adds protection against going bust" if anything surely the opposite would be true?
Unless your club of course has a serious investor prepared to bankroll the club in any event and then it's not really a unilateral rule change that could be effected across the sport.
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