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| Quote ="DirkDiggler"Haha....so Wigan being found guilty for breach of the cap was "against the spirit of the cap", after asking 9 players to defer wages on the promise of better contracts the following year so they could bring in more players, if that wasn't blatent and deceitful I'm at a loss.'"
The rules at the time failed to cover deferred payments. They didnt break the rules because the rules didnt exist. Blatent and deceitful? Absolutely. Wilfully breaking the rules? Nope. The problem Salford have, compared to the Wigan case, is that the brown paper bag method (which is essentially what Salford have employed) is explicitly stated in the rules as a breach.
Quote ="John Gilbert Reds"TP only signed two-year contract (2014 and 2015) as I understand it, the additional £40k side payment was made by EuroMachTech to TP in 2014 and this whole fiasco only surfaced when the 2015 payment wasn't made. It will be interesting how it's viewed, as the RFL statement indicates breaches in both 2014 and 2015 but as well know no payment was made in 2015.'"
The RFL can account the "missing" 40k on this years cap, but without a TP contract to associate that with, I can't see how they can - unless the EuroMachTech contract was longer, but I doubt anyone outside the involved parties will know that. The only other way its possible to count under this years rules is if theres evidence that this practice is still ongoing.
12 points is better than 20!
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| Quote ="oldhamred"The issue isn't the other £40'000, but where it comes from. Allegedly in this case it's from another company owned by MK, which isn't allowed as it would render the salary cap meaningless.
That's the point.. Is the player not allowed to earn any extra money from any company owned or partly owned by the Chairman of the club or any of his family or relatives, or any director or any relative of a board etc .'"
First the additional income should be declared. It appears it was not. Then the RFL can ascertain what work was done / the going rate for such work / the player's qualifications for doing that work etc.
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| Quote ="John Gilbert Reds"Just googled the Wigan salary cap breach from 2007, they exceeded the then £1.65m cap by £220k and received a 4 point deduction. Surely a precedent has been set with regards to punishment? If we receive anything over and above that, you would have to fancy any subsequent Koukash's legal appeal.'"
There may well be appeals. However I am sure the Salford legal team will also familiarise themselves with the rule changes since 2007. This way they will not naively conclude a penalty above 4 points is automatically incorrect. Furthermore the legal team will appreciate the nature of the breakage - if it exists - has been done against a different type of salary cap and appears to cross 2 seasons.
Very interesting times.
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| oldhamred wrote:
The issue isn't the other £40'000, but where it comes from. Allegedly in this case it's from another company owned by MK, which isn't allowed as it would render the salary cap meaningless.
That's the point.. Is the player not allowed to earn any extra money from any company owned or partly owned by the Chairman of the club or any of his family or relatives, or any director or any relative of a board etc .
First the additional income should be declared. It appears it was not. Then the RFL can ascertain what work was done / the going rate for such work / the player's qualifications for doing that work etc.
But if the extra payment was made to a separate company owned solely by TP, then as has been stated the RFL have no business looking into its books..
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| Quote ="oldhamred"But if the extra payment was made to a separate company owned solely by TP, then as has been stated the RFL have no business looking into its books..'"
Correct, the rule is pretty much unenforceable unless the player is willing to go public on the payment; however, it is very clearly against the salary cap rules. Other clubs may be doing it, but they are probably more careful in ensuring that the co-conspirator stays on side.
The basic rule of breaking the rules in this situation is "don't upset your co-conspirators"
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| oldhamred wrote:
But if the extra payment was made to a separate company owned solely by TP, then as has been stated the RFL have no business looking into its books..
Correct, the rule is pretty much unenforceable unless the player is willing to go public on the payment; however, it is very clearly against the salary cap rules. Other clubs may be doing it, but they are probably more careful in ensuring that the co-conspirator stays on side.
The basic rule of breaking the rules in this situation is "don't upset your co-conspirators"
Forever in Rented Accomodation
So if that's the case, and TP is the only who has come forward ( maybe Locke as well) then we are only talking about £100000 or so over the cap divided by 2 seasons which if you take Wigans case as a precedent , it should only be around 4 points deduction if found guilty.Then again ,if he wasn't even made the payments he was claiming, where's the crime? I'm confused!
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| Quote ="oldhamred"oldhamred wrote:
But if the extra payment was made to a separate company owned solely by TP, then as has been stated the RFL have no business looking into its books..
Correct, the rule is pretty much unenforceable unless the player is willing to go public on the payment; however, it is very clearly against the salary cap rules. Other clubs may be doing it, but they are probably more careful in ensuring that the co-conspirator stays on side.
The basic rule of breaking the rules in this situation is "don't upset your co-conspirators"
Forever in Rented Accomodation
So if that's the case, and TP is the only who has come forward ( maybe Locke as well) then we are only talking about £100000 or so over the cap divided by 2 seasons which if you take Wigans case as a precedent , it should only be around 4 points deduction if found guilty.Then again ,if he wasn't even made the payments he was claiming, where's the crime? I'm confused!'"
If you don't understand the points being made further explanation will not help you.
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| Quote ="oldhamred"oldhamred wrote:
But if the extra payment was made to a separate company owned solely by TP, then as has been stated the RFL have no business looking into its books..
Correct, the rule is pretty much unenforceable unless the player is willing to go public on the payment; however, it is very clearly against the salary cap rules. Other clubs may be doing it, but they are probably more careful in ensuring that the co-conspirator stays on side.
The basic rule of breaking the rules in this situation is "don't upset your co-conspirators"
Forever in Rented Accomodation
So if that's the case, and TP is the only who has come forward ( maybe Locke as well) then we are only talking about £100000 or so over the cap divided by 2 seasons which if you take Wigans case as a precedent , it should only be around 4 points deduction if found guilty.Then again ,if he wasn't even made the payments he was claiming, where's the crime? I'm confused!'"
Yes.
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| Quote ="DirkDiggler"Haha....so Wigan being found guilty for breach of the cap was "against the spirit of the cap", after asking 9 players to defer wages on the promise of better contracts the following year so they could bring in more players, if that wasn't blatent and deceitful I'm at a loss.'"
It wasn't deceitful. Wigan were open about what they did but it was found that as it was done to defeat the cap, it was against the spirit of the cap. This, however, is out and out deceit, and the RFL may well insist on MK being honest about all of his dealings with players. Can't they prevent bar a club owner from being one?
The biggest risk is that the only points wiped clean are "accrued points", and if you get hit with a big whacking deduction the RFL may say that negatives carry forward. If not, I'd just focus on the cup. A Wembley win and a cruise through the middle eights wouldn't be a bad season.
The biggest risk you have is that some big players left Salford under a cloud and they may happy to talk.
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| Quote ="oldhamred"So if that's the case, and TP is the only who has come forward ( maybe Locke as well) then we are only talking about £100000 or so over the cap divided by 2 seasons which if you take Wigans case as a precedent , it should only be around 4 points deduction if found guilty.Then again ,if he wasn't even made the payments he was claiming, where's the crime? I'm confused!'"
In acting dishonestly to deceive the cap, presenting one version of a player's salary to conceal the real one? I can't understand why it isn't hard to see, unless you're being wilfully blind.
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| I'm angry that we are in this position of charges being made against the club with no idea when a decision will be reached as to guilt or not. Obviously most people are assuming we are guilty but the fans are left dangling as to what is going to happen and when. Depending on the outcome we might just be wasting our time playing matches coz we are gonna lose the points anyway. So whats the point. Just when we have some renewed hope of a decent team and season the RFL drop this on us. I'm really ed off with the whole situation, if its not one thing its another at Salford (always with RFL in the background) and it really does make you feel like what is the point. I was looking forward to a good season and now all i can think about is this bloody problem. (stupid statement here, I think we should just refuse to play until they sort it out!!)
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| Quote ="redwolf" (stupid statement here, I think we should just refuse to play until they sort it out!!)'"
You said it.
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| Quote ="redwolf".................. I was looking forward to a good season and now all i can think about is this bloody problem........'"
Look on it as a character building experience.
If it's upsetting you at the moment then you clearly haven't been watching Salford for long enough
In a few years time you'll look back on all this and laugh
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| Quote ="redwolf"I'm angry that we are in this position of charges being made against the club with no idea when a decision will be reached as to guilt or not. Obviously most people are assuming we are guilty but the fans are left dangling as to what is going to happen and when. Depending on the outcome we might just be wasting our time playing matches coz we are gonna lose the points anyway. So whats the point. Just when we have some renewed hope of a decent team and season the RFL drop this on us. I'm really vexed off with the whole situation, if its not one thing its another at Salford (always with RFL in the background) and it really does make you feel like what is the point. I was looking forward to a good season and now all i can think about is this bloody problem. (stupid statement here, I think we should just refuse to play until they sort it out!!)'"
And we still haven't signed a new prop.
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| I did BGF ! In fact considering the RFL (Mr Woods) asked the DR to effectively save the club and put his own millions in etc and ever since it seems the RFL haven't supported his endeavours (he has probably been a bit naive over the S Cap IMO) I wouldn't blame him for saying, well if you are gonna continue to treat us this way im gonna get out Mr W. Now, I don't want the Doc to go I think he is great if not a bit naive at times (he didn't know the sport at all before and has been advised badly imo) but you couldn't blame him if he felt like that with all the hassle and problems he has faced a lot via the RFL from what i have seen.
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| We all know the RFL have it in for Koukash by his own creation.
I know there's rules for salary cap breach's, but what's the point in penalising the club, fans and current squad of players for something the owner has taken upon himself to do (and not very well), in the previous 2 seasons.
They should place a heafty fine on him and hit him where it hurts, I would say this is the more common sense approach.
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| Quote ="redwolf"I did BGF ! In fact considering the RFL (Mr Woods) asked the DR to effectively save the club and put his own millions in etc and ever since it seems the RFL haven't supported his endeavours (he has probably been a bit naive over the S Cap IMO) I wouldn't blame him for saying, well if you are gonna continue to treat us this way im gonna get out Mr W. Now, I don't want the Doc to go I think he is great if not a bit naive at times (he didn't know the sport at all before and has been advised badly imo) but you couldn't blame him if he felt like that with all the hassle and problems he has faced a lot via the RFL from what i have seen.'"
I think naïve is a very forgiving way to describe Mr Koukash' behaviour; he appears far from naïve - quite the opposite in fact - he appears to be arrogant, self assured and rather too used to getting his own way, hence some of the more outrageous things he has said and done since becoming the owner of your club. As for risking his millions - surely he didn't think that by so doing, he would be immune to the rules of the competition he had entered? He is a successful enough racehorse owner to know that sports have rules and governing bodies, who dictate the terms on which you participate in the competition they oversee.
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| Quote ="redwolf"I'm angry that we are in this position of charges being made against the club with no idea when a decision will be reached as to guilt or not. Obviously most people are assuming we are guilty but the fans are left dangling as to what is going to happen and when. Depending on the outcome we might just be wasting our time playing matches coz we are gonna lose the points anyway. So whats the point. Just when we have some renewed hope of a decent team and season the RFL drop this on us. I'm really vexed off with the whole situation, if its not one thing its another at Salford (always with RFL in the background) and it really does make you feel like what is the point. I was looking forward to a good season and now all i can think about is this bloody problem. (stupid statement here, I think we should just refuse to play until they sort it out!!)'"
what have the RFL dropped on you?
late last year at the TP case evidence of 'potential underhand payments and potential cap breaking' came to light. The RFL did not make these 'payments' They have jnvestigated a case going back over 2 years and have probably interviewed many ex players / coaches etc. Now there are charges.
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| If we are gonna break the cap again ???????
Let us do it in style, Benji Marshall is a free agent next year, he wants at least 600.000 aus dollars a year so just over £ 300.000,I reckon we can get away with it dead easy. Tell the RFL we are gonna pay him £80.000 a year send the paper work in the RFL will grant it, then we pay him the rest from another company, mite take the RFL a year or 2 to sort it but who care's it ;s only point's in a few years time.
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| Quote ="red in buxton"If we are gonna break the cap again ???????
Let us do it in style, Benji Marshall is a free agent next year, he wants at least 600.000 aus dollars a year so just over £ 300.000,I reckon we can get away with it dead easy. Tell the RFL we are gonna pay him £80.000 a year send the paper work in the RFL will grant it, then we pay him the rest from another company, mite take the RFL a year or 2 to sort it but who care's it ;s only point's in a few years time.'"
Pretty certain he'll play in SL via the Marquee signing rule, you never know with Sheens and Marshalls Tigers connection it might happen, would he fit in the new work ethic I don't quite think he would.
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| The Doc naive
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| Quote ="ploinerrhino"The Doc naive
'"
Cutting and insightful.
You are Neil Barker and I claim my £5.
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| If we are guilty we just need to hear the sentence. I would guess Marwan`s legal team will await the verdict and then consider the timing of any appeal.
If we are destined for the bottom 4 then I would feel the appeal against sentence may not come at all - if we are in the top eight then I would feel there wont be an appeal until seasons end as no doubt the points deduction will come next year.
I am hopeful therefore that we will at least be in the top 8 in one of the years & maybe lower down in the other. All depends on the deduction envisaged doesnt it? So lets stay positive.
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| Quote ="red in buxton"If we are gonna break the cap again ???????
=#FF0000
Let us do it in style, Benji Marshall is a free agent next year, he wants at least 600.000 aus dollars a year so just over £ 300.000,I reckon we can get away with it dead easy. Tell the RFL we are gonna pay him £80.000 a year send the paper work in the RFL will grant it, then we pay him the rest from another company, mite take the RFL a year or 2 to sort it but who care's it ;s only point's in a few years time.'"
Too late mate already signed for Leigh.
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