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| Looking at some of the Onion scores this weekend, I couldn't help noticing how close some of the scores were. I'm no defender of what seems like a pi*****r sport to me, but I suppose for those who like the game, these close results must improve the experience and thus be A Good Thing. Does anyone less lazy than me and with time on their hands know if Onion scores in their Premiership *are* generally closer than ours?
Feels to me like thats the case, and its the one paradox that makes running a league competition hard. For me, League is brutal in exposing a difference in ability, where a small gap in performance leads to big score differences. The 'purity' of the game is such that there's not much you can do to 'spoil', and play to perhaps one advantage, such as (in Union) if you had a good line out just belting the ball into the corners all the time.
Play on flooded pitches in Winter, that's a good leveller
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| I've not studied it, but in general I think the scores are closer. Generally because it's harder to dominate a team and expose their defences partly due to the poor attack and it's just the nature of the game that a big, well drilled pack can slow the game and turn it into an arm wrestle. Plus the penalty kick at goal is worth too much so discourages going for a try.
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| its closer because of the setup of the whole sport not because all teams are equal.
drop goal equals 3 points if that was the case in our sport teams would have a field day 30 meters out drop goal job done.
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| Quote ="Him"I've not studied it, but in general I think the scores are closer. Generally because it's harder to dominate a team and expose their defences partly due to the poor attack and it's just the nature of the game that a big, well drilled pack can slow the game and turn it into an arm wrestle. Plus the penalty kick at goal is worth too much so discourages going for a try.'"
Saturday, 8 September 2012
Leicester 34 - 26 Worcester
London Irish 31 - 40 Gloucester
Saturday, 1 September 2012
Wasps 40 - 42 Harlequins
The attacks must've been alright in those games?
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| Quote ="Wigg'n"Saturday, 8 September 2012
Leicester 34 - 26 Worcester
London Irish 31 - 40 Gloucester
Saturday, 1 September 2012
Wasps 40 - 42 Harlequins
The attacks must've been alright in those games?'"
Leicester vs Worcs: Five (incl one penalty try) tries to two.
Irish vs Gloucestr: Three tries all.
The 16 23 Sale and Saracens game only saw each team score one try each.
Bath 30, Wasps 23 was three tries to two.
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| Quote ="Him"I've not studied it, but in general I think the scores are closer. Generally because it's harder to dominate a team and expose their defences partly due to the poor attack and it's just the nature of the game that a big, well drilled pack can slow the game and turn it into an arm wrestle. Plus the penalty kick at goal is worth too much so discourages going for a try.'"
I agree with that. Also, I wouldn't underestimate the try-reducing effect of having 4 extra bodies on the field. Stands to reason that if in 7 a side you score every couple of minutes, then go the other way, up to 15, and the effect is the opposite. I've often wondered whether Union would start to be considerably better to watch if they lost the flankers. I played the odd game of Union and always felt like everybody (including your own team) was in one another's way.
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| Quote ="RLBandit"I agree with that. Also, I wouldn't underestimate the try-reducing effect of having 4 extra bodies on the field. Stands to reason that if in 7 a side you score every couple of minutes, then go the other way, up to 15, and the effect is the opposite. I've often wondered whether Union would start to be considerably better to watch if they lost the flankers. I played the odd game of Union and always felt like everybody (including your own team) was in one another's way.'"
Good point, I thoroughly enjoyed my time playing union and like you felt it would benefit from more space. I think losing the flankers would make a huge difference to Union as it would force the second rowers to become fitter and more athletic to take up some of the flankers role instead of being ridiculously tall lineout and scrum experts. Plus the extra space.
Quote ="Richie"Quote ="Wigg'n"Saturday, 8 September 2012
Leicester 34 - 26 Worcester
London Irish 31 - 40 Gloucester
Saturday, 1 September 2012
Wasps 40 - 42 Harlequins
The attacks must've been alright in those games?'"
Leicester vs Worcs: Five (incl one penalty try) tries to two.
Irish vs Gloucestr: Three tries all.
The 16 23 Sale and Saracens game only saw each team score one try each.
Bath 30, Wasps 23 was three tries to two.'"
So if played under RL scoring system the scores would have been:
Leicester 28-20 Worcester (26-12 without penalties)
London Irish 24-30 Gloucester (16-16 w/out penalties)
Sale 12-16 Saracens (6-4 w/out penalties)
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| Quote ="Him"Good point, I thoroughly enjoyed my time playing union and like you felt it would benefit from more space. I think losing the flankers would make a huge difference to Union as it would force the second rowers to become fitter and more athletic to take up some of the flankers role instead of being ridiculously tall lineout and scrum experts. Plus the extra space.
'"
I read a good history of League a few years ago (wish I could remember the title - it was at my dad's house but I can't find it now ) which covered the development of the rules over the years and its interesting how the reduction in number of players came about precisely to offer more space, but other things, like removing the contest for the ball at the tackle have not always been agreed on and came in later. In fact ( and League historians please correct me ) I recall that competing for the ball at the breakdown has been brought in and out in various flavours many times with the 'play-the-ball' not having always been universal. The current situation (no stealing) is probably the highest degree of protection the ball carrier has ever had. Seems to me that both Union and League have spent the last 100 odd years trying to work out the best way to deal with the ball in the tackle. The Union process isn't 100 percent daft in theory - watching the All Blacks on a roll, with rapid recycling, it can look really fluid, it's just that 99 percent of the time its a mess that breaks down every 10 seconds.
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| I think the question ought to be asked why there are so many blowout scores in Sl, rather than worry about another sport entirely. The nature of the sport makes it harder for poorer teams to stand up against better ones, but I've long held the view that SL teams (including the likes of Leeds this season) throw the towel in far too early.
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| The league scoring system in onion encourages teams to keep the score closer too with bonus league points for all sorts of things
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| Quote ="BrisbaneRhino"I think the question ought to be asked why there are so many blowout scores in Sl, rather than worry about another sport entirely. The nature of the sport makes it harder for poorer teams to stand up against better ones, but I've long held the view that SL teams (including the likes of Leeds this season) throw the towel in far too early.'"
I'm not sure it's "throwing the towel in"
More so, that when teams go behind they start taking more risks. Those risks lead to errors, which lead to conceding more points, going further behind, and pushing more risks.
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| Union games on average are generally lower scoring games, so they are likely to be closer. Also they play are a large part of the season in winter (Nov,Dec,Jan) where games are also generally lower scoring affairs. Most try scoring bonus points come at the start and end of the season when the weather is warm and more conducive to open rugby!
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| i think the way that the games are refereed currently contributes to the high scoring etc - personally think referees are too quick to give attacking teams penalties for minor technical offences, which leads to more time in opponents 20 and the snowball effect of repeat sets - overall leading to more points being scored, usually skewed towards the team that is generally more dominant (ie the favourite)
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| Quote ="pocket 4's"i think the way that the games are refereed currently contributes to the high scoring etc - personally think referees are too quick to give attacking teams penalties for minor technical offences, which leads to more time in opponents 20 and the snowball effect of repeat sets - overall leading to more points being scored, usually skewed towards the team that is generally more dominant (ie the favourite)'"
Only thinking out loud, but would a return to a free kick instead of a penalty for some offences be beneficial? So the attacking team would get an extra set but not the 20-40 extra metres on offer from a penalty?
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| i think for some offences a return to tackle 1 without the long field kick to gain territory is something worth thinking about, so many games swing on penalties awarded for really minor offences imo.
I also think for minor offences with the ball (say an attacking obstruction where a play clearly goes wrong and the ball carrier runs behind his own man) then a turnover of possession can be enough punishment in some cases (so its comparable to a knock-on or "accidental" offside).
However the problem will be that more discretion, interpretation and common sense would be required on behalf of referees, something which I doubt they are capable of.
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| The free kick could be an idea worth considering. Even in the NRL, attacking sets starting from within say 30-40m of the opponents' line are expected to deliver points.
Richie - sorry but I have to disagree. A lot of the points scored in too many games are down to dreadful, often completely uncommitted defence. IMO there's a mindset difference between NRL and SL where letting in 30 points is considered OK in SL, but a thrashing in the NRL (never mind some of the even bigger scores).
As an example Leeds have let in 30 points or more 10 times this year - more than once every 4 games - including three over 40 and once 50. Only three of our losses have been by 10 points or less. Of those four over 40 (Sts away, Wigan home, Wakey home and Hudds away) I challenge anyone to show that a significant number of tries in each game weren't down to poor defensive attitude.
That's shockingly bad for a supposed 'champion team', even one on the decline. What's even worse is that other sides leak far more points than us - that sort of defensive record ought to belong to wooden spooners.
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| It's just too easy to score in RL. It doesn't take much inventiveness or skill to force your way over. In many cases, it is just teams getting over the advantage line, and falling over the try line. A RL pitch is 100 metres, so let's say, per set 10 metres are gained per tackle. That's half of the sodding pitch covered through just completing the basics.
I agree on the "kick the touch" option of penalties. They're just too influential on getting a team into the oppositions half leading to many comprehensive tries. It's not that any team can be completely absolved from conceding penalties. Things are just too "of the moment" for a team not to infringe in some cases. Perhaps technical offences should be a "back to zero", where as high tackles and other dangerous play can remain with the same reward.
Whether it is too archaic to go back to a 5 metres defensive line or not, I don't know. But I think it would lead to more yards earned through skill and inventiveness than just "doing the basics well". Which may well lead to scorelines more close together, because the intensity factor (which most teams lack) would be a lot less important.
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| When you see teams of reasonably comparable ability compete for 80 minutes and players really put themselves on the line, scoring becomes much harder. That level of commitment simply doesn't exist for long in most games (generally evaporating once one side is 12 points up), and in some games is non-existent.
I'm not suggesting all teams should be fired up Origin style every week - its far from that in the NRL - but if you watch the highlight reels from a week of SL games, half of the tries look like unopposed training exercises.
There are blowouts in the NRL, but they are fewer, and teams generally respond to going too far behind by redoubling their efforts to avoid being humiliated, and if they can't they generally put in a much better effort the following week. I just don't see that effect very often at all in SL. How did Leeds respond to the gutless home loss against Wigan? With an almost equally gutless loss at Wire, followed by a points fest with Wakefield when neither side seemed interested in defence.
I think fans have a right to expect more. Players simply wouldn't get away with turning out cr*p like that in Australia.
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| Ever wondered why sports persons being dominated often go to ? It isn't just poor attitude (often poor prepared attitude, Leeds in their hair colouring episode springs to mind), it is human nature for people's heads to go down when losing/being over-run. This has happened in actual battle many times, sheer bad luck and unjust decisions/circumstances contrive even further to put doubts in people's minds, your performance suffers as a consequence. Conversely the opposition gain confidence and can often take advantage of this.
Thus you have cases were two evenly matched teams can all of a sudden have 20, 30, 40 point differential, sport psychology tries to overcome these situations, even situations were you have been successful & then have doubts about continuing to be successful. Despite RL being a 'tough' sport, it is often clear to me (since the late 80s when I did behavioural studes) that the majority of players are not anywhere near as tough mentally. There are very few people who are naturally not quitters and can withstand hard mental (as well as the obvious physical) pressures that sport brings.
As for union, their scores are getting bigger I feel, the faster outside back play/passing from scrums in modern times takes advantage of the strict offsides at the scrum and the fact that 8 players are properly committed to it (unlike in League were the binds are slacker than a Leeds' prozzies gussett..lol)
This opens up a large area of the field where attacks can be swift, because of the stop/start nature of union (not unlike NFL) the outside backs can be bigger/bulkier as they do not need the ultimate stamina that a RL back has so they can put in swift/powerful short bursts. This is devastating and very hard to counter when on the back foot.
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| Quote ="Him"Only thinking out loud, but would a return to a free kick instead of a penalty for some offences be beneficial? So the attacking team would get an extra set but not the 20-40 extra metres on offer from a penalty?'"
Possibly. The potential danger is that referees become more more willing to hand out free-kicks for trivial offences because the impact is slightly less.
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| The crippling effect of penalities cant be ignored either, how often (multiple times on a Sky game) do we see 2 or 3 back to back penalties awarded, sometimes in debatable circumstances that then leads to a try.
Teams make an error, penalty is awarded, next set they are over eager to make amends, penalised then having been rolled 60m upfield they are disorganised and give up a score.
(what compounds this is perceived lack of consistancy in players, where they are penalised for one thing, yet see the opposition get away with "the same thing" over and over)
Id also say that for all its razzamataz the NRL is and has always been a hugely defence orientated game, where the English game has always been attack orientated - regardless of what we purists we want to see, the casual fans want tries, and lots of em. (this is also perhaps why the RU is seeing bigger and bigger scores - no one wants to see a 12-9 score with not a single try scored)
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