It depends how you measure this. Playing numbers in the south have grown massively, TV viewers of sky RL is significant not to mention the numbers attending Wembley and The Olympic stadiums for internationals from the south.

The Broncos have 'failed' due to the owners approach to marketing etc. Hes a wealthy guy who is happy to fund his Sunday drinking club whilst watching his team.

In November 2016 we had 40,042 people attend a Rugby League match in a City that used to have a Professional Rugby League club.

Why did we not capitalise on this, why instead are we going to Denver? Why don't we spend some time and a franchise operation on things like this?

The other thing is the biggest exansion recently is across Europe and the RLIF, RFL, NRL and SL are no involved in this and it is being ignored for matches like the Eng v NZ games.... Why? Why go to Denver? I do not see the reason.

Anyhow, back to expansion that above to me shows that we can expand locally still more if we put the effort in we are trying to put in elsewhere.......

We move the Challenge Cup to Cardiff, a great success but no Pro Club on the back of it comes about, we move it to Murrayfield, again nothing.

There is a trend. We should be going to these places and leaving a legacy not just a flash in the pan one off.

The most sensible posts so far





Just one thing to add though, Perez does seem to have the drive and ambition to actually try and achieve something in North America, something horribly lacking from ANYONE involved on this side of the pond.

Perhaps we should give Perez Nigel Woods old job

I would let him carry on, and anyone else who wishes to get involved would have full support, just don't go looking in places that we do not have a Perez's or a history or RL is my thoughts, except to promote the game at lower levelsl.

What inverse snobbery! I have no issue with expansion but it needs to be done properly and not at the expense of what we already have - if you want a golden egg you don't kill the Goose thats laying it do you.

Love to see the game in London, Paris and New York but why does that have to be at the expense of the games heartland - the heartland that so many pseudo intellectuals on hear sneer at at. No other supporters of other sports seem so hell bent on junking their heritage as we do and that shows to me that we suffer a massive lack of self esteem.

People like you are not 'expansionists' you are dreamers and fantasists and they are a million miles apart. It's all quick fixes and bling or to put it in a Northern way it's all Fur and no knickers.

Get the heartland game vibrant and strong. Make the M62 corridor a fortress of the game - make it work in the hinterlands and the rest will follow - like most things it's simple, what part of it don't you get?

Absolutely spot on there vasty.

What I don't get is that, if it's so simple, why not one single person who takes issue with the notion of expansion or improving standards seems to have a suggestion on how to do this.

How do we "get the heartland game vibrant and strong"? How do we make the M62 a "fortress of the game" and how do we "make it work in the hinterlands" when the clubs have collectively demonstrated that they can't do that? Where is the investment and the finance coming from?

You accuse me of being a fantastist, but it is equally fantastical to suggest that we can do exactly that without some form of expansion when all of the evidence suggests that the clubs can't grow their revenue to invest in what is needed, that we can't increase central funding because broadcasters and sponsors have very limited interest in what we're offering to them, and when clubs have demonstrated that they simply can't market themselves properly.

I'm not for expansion for the sake of expansion as you may have wrongly pigeon-holed me. I'm pro-expansion because I see it as the best, and indeed in some cases the only, solution for deep-rooted challenges that the game faces. If that means that a place at the 'top table' becomes more difficult to attain and demands higher standards from all member clubs (heartland or otherwise), I would argue that's not a bad thing.

First of all the sport needs to be strong or, we're screwed anyway and we need people running the sport to have vision and a plan on how to grow the game (whether in the UK or further afield) and I certainly agree that we shouldn't be "junking" what we have.
Plus, we've had over a hundred years to make what we have strong and it looks as vulnerable now as it ever has.

However, who is suggesting junking anything ?

IF and it's a huge IF, the game can take off in new territory, then surely, that should be welcomed and not sneered at by inward thinking people who believe that the game can not exist outside the "heartlands" ?

Yes, "we" have planted numerous trees in numerous "deserts" in the past but, there does appear to be something different about Perez and his desire to establish RL in North America.

Personally, I dont think clubs from N. America should be competing in "our" league but, it has to be good for the game as a whole if we have additional "genuine" RL playing nations.

Well said.....(sorry about my over reaction/pm the other day)

That's ok but ffs watch your spelling

1. So France is OK, but Toronto isn't? It seems logical that any team that can pull its own weight should be considered, but it depends on the weight that needs pulling and the costs involved.....I supported Toronto at first, but have become far more skeptical over the last 12 months with the constant need to announce attendances that don't match what fans present or watching on TV concur with, rumours of debts to various suppliers, companies being opened and closed and as for being under the cap



......as I say, if a team from Outer Mongolia wanted to join and had the fiscal muscle, then why not? It's not like we'd drop them straight into SL like happened with PSG and London.....make them earn they place.
2. Ireland is a complete non-starter. GAA and Hurling rule there, followed by a fanatical football support and Union being ingrained there......the IRFU would drown us at birth and not care that the cameras were there to film it! Cumbria is just too geographically split and unless they accept a combined/merged side, are a complete non starter, Wales is growing and at an acceptable pace...I believe there were 10 Welsh born lads in their RLWC squad.....they need to get more games to push ahead with their development and the WRU seem quite amenable to the sport having a presence, Scotland on the other hand are dead in the water.....unless someone is willing to throw 2 million a year at this project for 20 years then I can't see it ever catching on. The South of England has potential, but given the current owner of the Broncos has happily ignored any advice from anywhere and instead flushed 2 million away each year as well as dragging the club from pillar to post and eventually out of SL and playing at a wedding venue, I suspect any new hope there will not have "Broncos" in its name, Newcastle has a club that is growing gradually and Kent last time I looked was in the South East......
3. Rugby League is an expensive Hobby.....Just ask Ken Davy or David Hughes and they'll show you 20 million + in debts owed to them each........Mr Perez will need to up his average gate to 10k and up the ticket price by 200% to break even once they hit the promised land....and they won't be hammering sides week in week out and neither will they be given the luxury of 10 straight games at home in a row once they hit SL.

Nice one....Merry Xmas !

Excellent post this

maybe we have reached our pinicale already

Where do people want RL to be / end up - like football??

Not at all. Clubs like Leeds, FC, Wigan and St Helens and Wire already average over 10k and teams like Catalans and Castleford aren't far away, but then it gets interesting with HKR, Widnes, Hudds, Wakey, Leigh & Salford who are between 7 and 4k,,,,,,,then the rest at present are on minimal figures.

If we are to assume that the French and Castleford remain in or near that top 7 clubs, then it is from 8 to 13 where there is a real opportunity to strengthen the game AS WE CURRENTLY HAVE IT, with no need to fastrack any clubs based on the number of beer drinkers there are in the crowd or how much they are over the cap


I would concentrate on getting those 6 clubs up to the 10k mark....a SL with all the clubs financially viable is a good base camp to build from.

I guess my problem for me is that I only have one team (two if you include England). If the Blue'n'white disappeared then I'd not be interested in the game. My heart and soul lives and breathes with my team.

This is why expansion to a lot of "die-hard" RL supporters is so ludicrous - we're tied in for life to our own team, regardless of what league they play in.

RL will never be a major global (or UK) sport, and although I do hope that the endeavours in Canada and the USA do well, they should be focused on building the game in their own countries.

There's a separate thread regarding reserves, and that's where our own domestic issues lie. Young men taking up, playing and importantly staying with the game, has diminished over the last 10 years or so, and depriving them of development (through structured age and reserve teams) past their teens is ludicrous.

Summary for me is that we're a minority sport with a very decent TV sponsorship deal with Sky, and we have a heritage that lasts well over 100 years. We should be looking for ways in which we can "lock in" our existing supporters (and their friends & families) before embarking on journeys over the Atlantic (or even the English Channel).

Halifax has a population of near 100,000 people and last season were one of 6 sides in the Championship from West Yorkshire, with a population of 2.3 million....so how come with 30 "local derbies" in the regular season we aren't filling The Shay, Odsal, Mt Pleasant etc? 2,027 was the average gate for the Championship in 2017 and now with HKR and Bradford elsewhere, I can see that dropping down again in 2018....Toronto might draw a few curious fans back for one game, but what are the clubs doing to attract more fans?
This isn't a pop at Fax or west Yorkshire clubs BTW.......just a genuine question. If we're not going to accept offers of new territories from "supposedly cashed up" owners in far flung cities, what are we going to do about the decline in interest in the heartlands?

Get where you are comming from
But, reading all these pages upon pages of how expansion is the saviour of Rugby League, can someone out there help me out with a few questions that dont seem to be answered - (I am but a simple man)

1. I have read: Catalans (Toulouse) bring more to the table than say Leigh or Widnes. What do they bring, what I can see is they have been in SL for many a year now. They bring no fans, they are covered by SKY, so what do they bring? do they actually put money into the RL?

2. Toronto apparently with there multi billion TV deal - well they were operationg last season on Premier Sports, does anyone know how much they injected into the RL if anything. Again another team with a taxi load of fans.

3. New York some on here have stated get them in Super League, they dont even have a team yet - If we think the Americans are going to travel to the North of England with all their equipment to show RL live - err dont think so.

4. Marketing again read loads about marketing - you can spend thousands of pounds on me trying to sell synchronised swimming to me, but if I dont want to go I wont.

5. Anyone remember these: gateshead who, Paris what, kent who, Scarborough err, yea all these made up clubs have been, tried it and gone.
We have been there wore the shirt, eat the stew before.
That is probably why a majority of us are sceptical.

6. Read Perez, cracking bloke, he will take over the world - again wasnt Marwan an early Perez, where is he now.

I am not a doom and gloom merchant, we have seen all this come and go before, My opinion rightly or wrongly is we are were we are, like it or lump it and I cant see it improving.

Away fans is a pointless measure of what a club brings to the party.

What the Catalans have brought is European TV coverage, a largely redeveloped venue, more French professional players than every before, a portfolio of sponsors that has included Nike, Renault and Air France-KLM and they have increased our geographic spread. I'd say that's a pretty good contribution.

And in any case, why are expansion clubs held up to this higher standard as to what they contribute to the rest of us? Is it not enough for them to simply be good clubs in their own right?



Their average gate was more than many established Super League clubs.



Marketing isn't about getting people to do what they don't want to do, or like what they want don't want to like. It's about peaking interest, raising profile and making it easy to buy - whether that's tickets, merchandise or corporate partnerships.

Look at the new kits thread as a simple example. Some of the pictures in there look like they've been taken in the cleaner's cupboard. The Bulls photo barely shows the shirt. That's an example of where our marketing is poor.

Marketing is an investment and like all investments it carries risk, but good marketers do what they can to mitigate that risk and maximise return.



Nobody is disputing that the track record isn't good, but past failure is not an indicator of future success or failure.

Yes, there is risk. But I'd argue the greatest risk is in not looking to expand our audience reach.



As above.

Thanx BR, still not entirely convinced, just got in off nights and going to bed. I will have a proper read tonight, thanx again

It keeps on coming up that away fans "don't matter". Of course they do. A healthy away support not only generates more much needed cash for the home team, but also creates a more vibrant atmosphere at the game. That in itself can generate more up-front interest in the match, and hence a few more paying spectators through the turnstiles.

I still fail to see what a rich benefactor pumping money into a club on the other side of the Atlantic/English Channel does for the game in the UK? They'll still take their share of the TV money after all.

In terms of this supposed decline in interest, crowds rose with the advent of Super League, but have remained fairly static for the last 10 years. Actually not that bad considering that we've been in recession and there are more and more leisure activities popping up for folk to do nowadays.

The game does need a re-vamp though. Professionalism in the sport has created a somewhat more sterile game to watch, with a big focus on following a "game plan" and not making mistakes. A tricky one to resolve, but remember that American Football has evolved from Rugby Union but bears little resemblance now.

One idea mooted elsewhere has been to distribute TV money unequally, with the lowest placed teams receiving the most cash for the next season. We don't like rewarding failure in the UK, so doubt it would ever take off, but it's a similar principle as used by American Football where the lowest placed teams get first dibs at selecting players in the annual draft system. This would help create a more level playing field that wasn't dominated by the same teams every year.

I'm not against teams in France, Canada or the US per se, but if they are to join our leagues then they should follow exactly the same operational rules as everyone else, without any favouritism whether financial or otherwise.

Careful Vastman, I'm beginning to like you.

I'm with you Sparky,but you're wasting your valuable time with these clowns mate.

Deary me. What do Catalan bring apart from 14/15 televised games a year for Sky. 9,000 average home fans. Second largest turnover in the league, one of the top academy teams in the league, widens the player pool with more French players in SL than ever before and improving every year.

But hey Fev will bring a couple hundred of away fans so lets kick Catalan to the curb.

It doesn't need to be one or the other. But I would sacrafice any so called Championship heartland club for the Catalan club.

All the while knowing your club is safe and sound in SL and will be for a long time.
Nice.