Go on Wikipedia and it will give you all the squads for the Superleague sides.

To get a fair assessment don't include any player that has a high squad number and played just 2 games. This is the trick people play to pretend France is producing Superleague quality players

Just keep it simple. List the French lads who hold down a first team Jersey across Superleague....... It will only take you 10 minutes.

You can cheat - you can list many players who are signed to Toulouse and Catalans that are erm French.....Besides Toulouse are not a Superleague side...

AND remember the purpose of French SL clubs, it was to produce French players who could compete on the international stage let alone Superleague.

You forget that.......

Now answer my question - how many French lads held down a first team Superleague jersey in 2007

Then how many French lads hold down a first team Superleague Jersey now?

Then 13 years on calculate for me the growth of the French Superleague player pool..........

Simple enough for you?

Come on Donny.

I agree that there was some "talk" at the time of Catalan's inclusion in SL that they would "help" the French National side and who is to say thet they haven't, after all, there is no way to compare say the England or GB side now with the England or GB aside of 25 years ago, with the French side now and the French side of 25 years ago.

Are you seriously suggesting that a French national side, picked from 1 pro club and a few amateur sides, could possibly compete with an England side selected from 20+ professional sides and a host of players now plying their trade down under ??

Not even you could put up an argument to suggest that the French could or should have a hope in hell of competing ??

And had the French not had any FT players, they WOULD be far worse than they are with the inclusion of Catalan and Toulouse players.

Would the French national side improve if there were more full time pro French sides in SL or a French Pro League, of course they would but, you know this, it's not even difficult.
Would they be even worse if Catalan and Toulouse were kicked out to SL and The Championship, well, yes, of course they would.

Get a grip man and let's have a little less of your anti everything but English nonsense.

I thought thet you might have chilled out a touch since Toronto packed in

It may be worth you looking at the Catalan squad in their inaugural season.
Using your own measure of only counting players who made a reasonable number of full appearances, they could actually be making progress.

There wasn't "some talk" at all................Richard Lewis was clear the game needed International competition to get noticed and to genuinely expand. That's why they included Catalans and quickly re-installed the GB French tests. Why do you deny reality?

I'm not "suggesting" the nonsense you made up, nor am I anti-France, you always try to discredit me personally when you can't discredit the point of the debate.

Here's Sadler...[i"In 2015 Catalans gave a debut to Lucas Albert who looked like the best half back to come out of France for many years, Since then he's been on the fringes of the first team without ever being able to displace the overseas players .Last week the Dragons revealed he was leaving. The Dragons problem is there is no way through the ranks for promising French youngsters when they are intent on signing overseas stars"[/i

Isn't this the issue as regards Toronto? No canadians?? At least they had an excuse.

Here's Catalans Dragons overseas starting team........Tomkins.S, Davies, Folau, Mead, Tierney, Langi, Maloney, Drinkwater, McIlorum. Moa, Whitley Casiano and Tompkins J. There you go not a Frenchman in sight after 14 years of the clubs existence. No academy either? Spent that money on Falou.

Now do you get it? Or are you going to try to twist your way out of that

It's exactly what I have researched for goodness sake

Les Catalans were supposed to play the top French players in their Professional Superleague team so the players could be developed such that they could provide competitive annual France.v.Great Britain test games.

What's happened is Catalans have shoved them all out, sure there are lads like Theo Fages in the English system, Navarette, Miloudi, Escare etc, I fully acknowledge that but all that means is [uwe do not need Les Catalans who refuse to run an academy and clearly refuse to develop and sign the top French players.[/u

France can send their best players over here all day long [uas they now do[/u. There in no point to Catalans Dragons if they...

1. Refuse to sign and play the best French lads
2. Cannot find a French TV deal
3. Will not run an academy

And so what do you think Toulouse would do if they were hoisted into Superleague? Copy Catalans?? Let's see if you have a debate in you

Cut the "made up" childish rubbish it's insulting. I have answered it as above.........

If the French game produces French RL players good enough to play Professional Superleague then the English cubs can sign them. A case in point is Theo Fages he went to St Helens and became a fantastic star. Luca Albert decided to go to Les Catalans, but they didn't play him and he's not developed because of this and has dropped back to the French League.

You two could not be more wrong. The French game develops young players, and a small number are good enough for Superleague.

There is however no pathway to Superleague if they sign for Les Catalans. that is Sadlers point quality young French players can sign for SL clubs here and go through the ranks here from academy to reserves (when that re-starts) and to first team. Fages is an example.

But Les catalans cleary do not offer these opportunities do they? Gaucsh just signs the biggest stars he can and to hell with French players.......

Don't you think with the Folau money Gausch could have re-opened an academy instead?? Or are you conveniently forgetting that too?

Sorry Donny but, you choose to follow an anti expansion narrative (understatement) and display "the" Catalan starting 13.
I'm sure you know that their 2020 squad of 30 players includes 16 French born players and whilst accepting that their first choice 17 would include say 6 or 7 of those players, most other SL sides would be broadly similar.
If there is to be a 7 non fed trained player rule, would you exempt Catalan from this ?? and should all other clubs do the same ??

Think again

EVERY SL club is trying to do the best that it can on the field of play and just because Catalan are French, it's utterly ridiculous to enforce a different set of rules for them.
You love to quote your RL Press editors but, do you not think that their editorials are deliberately provocative and do you think that there could be a reason for this.

I actually agree that Catalan could and should do more to help develop their best talent but, in an open market, you couldn't guarantee that those players would want to remain at Catalan. How on earth would you impose that ruling.
Should we insist that any French born players at other clubs return and play for Catalan ?
Would it be legal - I dont think so.

Bottom line, are they breaking any rules - no

Should they do more to help develop the game in France - yes

Once again you try to win a debate by simply discrediting me









your acting no better than west end "thinker"

Expansion has always meant more players developed and more TV money. When TWP came in to expand the game they failed to set up any player development system and didn't find any North American TV money. So out they went as they didn't offer Superleague anything, and guess what? Les catalans don't do player development and didn't find any paying French TV deal.

So (1) explain to me how Les Catalans are [uexpansion[/u??? Remember X111 Catalans by the way were formed in Perpignan in 1934

then (2) explain to me what expanded when Widnes were thrown out of SL to accommodate Catalans???

Don't just make stuff up about me...

Have Melbourne Storm been a worthwhile addition to the NRL?

How many victorians have made first grade there?

Would you advocate replacing Melbourne Storm with another club in Queensland or NSW?

Perhaps you need to go back to the inception of "Super League" for your answer.
The all new SuperDooperLeague brought in 25 years ago, due to RL being all but bankrupt in the UK.

Uncle Mo brokered a deal and forced the switch to summer rugby and in turn the sport got a heap of cash from Sky.
The original league, to try and distinguish it from the old first division was "sold" as spreading the game and included London, Paris, Sheffield and Workington and the game was "sold" on showing an "expanded" version of RL and with the demise of Paris, a replacement French club was sought.
When you look at the 12 original clubs and see that only 5 of them are currently in SL and that neither of the Hull sides were included, it seems crazy but, that's RL for you.
To make room for Catalan coming in to the League and a return to the "Eurpoean" concept, there were two clubs relegated but, this was known in advance and while there is no doubt that this was harsh on Widnes, it was certainly no worse than the clubs getting "culled" from the old first division in the season prior to SL.

Widnes were not "thrown out" but, relegated for finishing in the bottom two.
Were Cas also relegated from 11th due to Catalans "protection" ?

Paris collapsed in 1997, many years before Catalans were introduced into Superleague, I don't deny that the game at that time tried to geographically expand to try to get more people investing, playing, developing and watching. But it didn't work did it, and we find (sadly) that you can't "expand" anything unless you make the money to re-invest in the game. Same applies to all businesses.

Catalans were brought in to underpin GB/France tests that is 100% correct, I was there when Lewis spoke of it and there at the first test at Headingley.

Not for one second did the RFL invite Les Catalans into Superleague to replace Paris. They had been saying "NO" to Toulouse for 8 years after Paris collapsed, and a lot of people were behind Toulouse. If what you say is true then it would have been Toulouse into Superleague 1998.

You need to remember we BOTH go back a very long way

So, You are suggesting that the sole reason for Catalan coming into SL was to underpin the England v France fixtures and not in anyway to give credence to SL being more than just the old First division.
Paris was a very poor concept and there WAS a desire to find a replacement for them.

Catalan "formed" in 2000, only a couple of years after Paris collapsed and they were deemed stronger than Toulouse, hence them getting the nod.

For me, SL is better for having Catalan in the comp, something that I realise you dont agree with (and never will).

Your opinion and your are indeed fully entitled to it, just as I am mine.

Your "opinion" isn't based on reality. You can't just accept you got this wrong. Paris was chosen as a capital city and they played London who erm are also a capitol city and Maurice Lyndsay spoke of Milan another big city and Barcelona who were a regional capital. Not my opinion at all, this is from David Lawrenson's article on Superleague from the book Seasons in the Sun. Lawrenson makes no reference to Perpignan. Toulouse pushed to replace the defunct Paris as Toulouse applied 1996 and were blocked out by Paris. The replacement was there - the fact is Superleague didn't want them. There was no desire to find a French replacement - you made that up - I looked it up.......

You also know full well Superleague clubs are required to develop juniors into pro-players and underpin a TV deal. The English clubs do this , the North American clubs can't do this and and French clubs have no desire - Catalans who follow the policy of shipping in overseas players do not, and Toulouse are set to follow that.

Not my opinion at all

what I reflect is Elstone's analysis that North America bring nothing to Superleague, and nor do Catalans, or even Toulouse if they eject their French players for Aussies, kiwis and south sea islanders.

I can accept you like the romantic idea personally of a "French" SL club but it's worth recording on here that even the arch expansionist Martyn Sadler just doesn't see it anymore. Not when there's no interest in promoting French players which killed the GB.v.France games....You made up the bit in bold.

Well it's a very interesting question and you may think it a very fair answer if I say I don't know a lot about Australian Rugby league. But I would say that [uMelbourne Storm obviously underpin the massive NRL TV deal[/u there is no such deal in France

I would also say that London develop few players despite a 40 year existence yet they are seen as important in terms of being in Superleague. I am not sure about this.

But if Martyn Sadler sees no point to Catalans if they refuse to develop French juniors into professionals (and can't get a France TV deal) there is a better argument for removing them from SL than these is for removing Melbourne from the NRL.It may not be a case that Melbourne develop few Victorian professionals, more that Catalans simply refuse to even try to develop any at all?

Bottom line as proposed by Martyn Sadler is Mr, Gausch can choose to ensure his money is spent on finding the best team from anywhere so his club can win things and get to finals, or he can engage in some real French development. This begs the question maybe English SL clubs should follow suit and shut their academies?

And the answer to that may come with the new 2022 deal.

Are you suggesting that SKY are concerned about how many players each club produces ?? Really ??
Sky are bothered about having something to broadcast, selling subscriptions and most importantly, selling advertising.

Do you think that they are in the least bit concerned about junior or academy development ?

To steal one of your favourite phrases, you made that up.

SL can insist that clubs produce X number of players as part of the "membership" of the league but, not Sky.

As far as "shipping in overseas players", have they (Catalan) broken any rules here ?

I think you got the first point muddled up. It's the Supereague clubs that are primarily keen clubs have a full player development system, this however involves SKY who provide money for the foundations that promote Rugby league in Superleague club areas. After that it's the clubs who agreed development then needed SL clubs to have academies, and then they started to sort out reserves as well

Before COVID It was going this way:-

1. Foundations paid for by SKY to promote Rugby League and encourage junior clubs - linked to charitable works
2. Best kids go into academies for professional development
3. Best players gravitate to first team squad
4. Possible late developers go into the reserves

Bernard Gausch doesn't really bother with any of this this and his poilicy is concentrate on finding the very best players Catalans can find even if that leaves no French players in the side, and just try to win trophies. As a result of that it was Martyn Sadler that made a scathing criticism of the club reflecting the criticisms that English Superleague sides have of the club as well. Gausch rarely ever attends SL meetings even though SL bosses demanded he did to explain why so much money was thrown at Folau (again rather than developing French players).

To answer your question I don't think Les Catalans are breaking the rules, BUT nor do I think that if the Superleague chairmen who are generally fed up to the back teeth with them would be breaking any rules excluding them in 2022. As for SKY they don't want overseas clubs full stop, but as McManus said they will concede a couple if that means expanding the game with more players and more TV money.

Finally (and thanks for the debate) it has always been the case that the "expansion of the game" involves clubs who develop more quality players to expand the playing pool and develop more paying TV deals to pay these players . Proof positive came from Eric Perez who said he would do this with TWP. Obviously TWP did neither and were booted out. Thing is Gausch does "Neither either"

All questions, no answers.

What DO Catalans bring to the tournament? Make the case considering;

They don't produce players.
When they reached a major final, ticket sales were the worst ever.
The profile of the comp has declined since their involvement.
France RL are if anything worse, and do not bring any interest to the value of international RL.

I could go on and Donny has (at great length).

You think Catalans are good for SL. Please tell us. What are the positives?

Just for clarity on this.
Lets assume that Catalan (or any other overseas club) ran a reserve and academy side.
When and where do you propose that they play their fixtures, remembering that these fixtures dont usually fall all that conveniently ie on the same day as the first team - reserve games certainly dont and would the English clubs be happy to send their reserve and academy sides to France, when some of those players may get drafted into the first team squad at short notice ?
I have posed this question to you previously but, I dont think that you came up with an answer.?

Isn’t St Esteve, Catalans reserve team?

Only saints, Wigan and Leeds produce SL quality players. The rest shove a number 23 squad number on a random local amateur player to keep costs down.

Look at F Estebanez, more suited to RL, if B Guasch spent big on development of local talent 99% of the best will be bought by RU clubs, and with all the travelling involved, I don't see the point of having Catalonia in SL. Just have British teams. Have a good semi-professional French league, and lets see what new laws RU come up with over the next 2 years. Wayne Pivac said yesterday he's expecting quite significant changes, meaning the sport will go closer to RL. Who knows, maybe a few wealthy French guys will just adopt RL laws, or very similar ones, as they say, never say never.

Yes. I have mentioned this before on this thread I think. Might have been the other one.

Makes me laugh when people accuse Catalans of not producing players when half of SL and vast majority of lower leagues don’t. Some don’t even have academies? Catalans may not be perfect but they are damn sight better than some.

Someone accused Toronto of not producing players. How can you expect to produce Championship/SL standard players in 4 years in a country that’s hardly ever played League and doesn’t have a decent amateur game? Stupid point. I do concede that they should have done more with the camps and players such as Quinn Ngawati, Joe Eichner, Rhys Jacks, Monti Gaddis etc though.

France as a county are going to be nowhere near the levels of England/GB in terms of talent. Our player pool is so much bigger, more hotbeds of RL, better amateur system, RL didn’t get banned over here whereas in France it was illegal for a time. That beds into culture and a whole generation or two will have played something else which filters down to their kids etc. If RL was banned in this country for a length of time we might only ever see an amateur game again if it did come back.

If there was a rule stating that at least 6-7 of the match day 17 had to be home grown. Catalans would probably still get playoffs or at least compete. A number of other clubs wouldn’t. I’ll let you decide which ones.

No.

It's not really......It's a way of pretending Catalans have a development system.

Let's just think about this. Junior French RL is still played around the south of France. 30,000 people are supposedly registered as RL players, so there is a significant game there. After a few years once Les Catalans got established in Superleague they put together an Academy side and [uLes Catalans academy used to be a good side that could easily hold it's own.[/u

Currently there are no "Reserve teams" so NO St.Esteve are not a reserve team, they are a club in their own right. I don't think if all SL clubs had to have reserve teams that they would get away with such ideas that Milford were actually Leeds "A" or Lock Lane were in fact "Castleford "A"........

If St Esteve were their reserve team then can any of us make a list of St. Esteve juniors that have gravitated to a first team Catalans jersey??? The thing is I can name you (and already have) an almost full strength Les Catalans side that would contain no French players at all.

It's glaringly obvious that Les Catalans have no player development systems at all and their owner simply buys in the best English and antipodeans he can, some like Folau at an enormous cost that could easily have kept Catalans academy going.........

The lower leagues are not relevant to the debate at all. Professional Superleague clubs are supposed to run player development systems.

Catalans do not. They came into the game on the idea that they were the club that would develop French professionals to bring back the test matches, so why do you ignore that fact? They actually did set the systems up at one time and they worked....so they themselves conceded the requirement so why apologise for them now they have dumped it?

The only comparable club without much of a development system is Salford who struggle for money and risk their own inclusion in SL. Folau's wage would cover a return of the Catalans academy. Go figure.

Toulose are set to follow Les catalans, do you think it great that if they did this they would boot the French lads out of their team for Aussies? Perhaps have a chat with John Kear about the importance of junior development, your own club support it even if you somehow don't.....

Are you suggesting that RL in France simply "surrenders" to RU ??

Every club that develops any player, risks them moving away to another club or Union or "down under".

I actually agree with Donny that each club should be developing a certain number of players.
However, you cant prevent them from moving clubs, it's not possible and it doesn't matter if we're talking about Catalan, Wigan or Castleford.
Each club should contribute to the player pool.

I find your comments on Union both interesting and disturbing in equal measure as you could apply those comments to ALL RL clubs and not just to Catalan.
As a sport RL should be trying to grow and improve but, despite having had 70/80 years head start over Union as a professional sport, we look like our decisions are being made by a few blokes in a small room at the back of the Local Working men's club.

As for RL in France becoming a semi professional sport and allowing RU to once again shove League into an ever smaller corner of France, I just despair.