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| Quote ="wrencat1873"
2 clubs in the same city seem to work well in the round ball game and they "sell" the derby aspect of the fixture.'"
Comparing Hull with a population of 300,000 with Manchester 2.8million or Liverpool 1.5million is pointless..  |
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| Quote ="Joff"Comparing Hull with a population of 300,000 with Manchester 2.8million or Liverpool 1.5million is pointless..
'"
Manchester's population is a fraction of that. You are deliberately including Bolton, Bury, Oldham, Rochdale, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford, Wigan, and Salford, which are part of Greater Manchester, which is a Metropolitan County, not a City. Hull is a City surrounded by nothing. |
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| Quote ="tiger Tot" Hull is a City surrounded by nothing.'"
Like an urban black hole? |
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| Quote ="Joff"Comparing Hull with a population of 300,000 with Manchester 2.8million or Liverpool 1.5million is pointless..
'"
Why is it pointless ?
Surely, we are comparing one of the top fixtures in the SL program with one of the top fixtures in the premiership.
Just because the premiership game pulls 70,000 fans and SL pulls 15,000 doesnt make it pointless, unless you are covering your ears in the style of a spoilt 7 year old and not wanting to listen.
Taken in context and given the population of Hull compared with your (inflated) population of Manchester and Liverpool, in percentage terms, there is a greater interest in the RL fixture in Hull(or Wigan (if you go for Wigan v Saints)than there is in the football (Liverpool or Manchester).
There is little point in bemoaning the fact that our sport is less popular than football as this always has been and always will be the case.
However, we can learn from how they promote their game both as clubs and within the media or, are you closed to that as well |
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Why is it pointless ?
Surely, we are comparing one of the top fixtures in the SL program with one of the top fixtures in the premiership.
Just because the premiership game pulls 70,000 fans and SL pulls 15,000 doesnt make it pointless, unless you are covering your ears in the style of a spoilt 7 year old and not wanting to listen.
Taken in context and given the population of Hull compared with your (inflated) population of Manchester and Liverpool, in percentage terms, there is a greater interest in the RL fixture in Hull(or Wigan (if you go for Wigan v Saints)than there is in the football (Liverpool or Manchester).
There is little point in bemoaning the fact that our sport is less popular than football as this always has been and always will be the case.
However, we can learn from how they promote their game both as clubs and within the media or, are you closed to that as well
'"
NB: I only responded to EastHull's assertion that FC didn't belong in the top tier of clubs in terms of attendances and fiscal ability.....I didn't say HKR weren't worthy, just that they were the 2nd side in the city.
3rd biggest gate i SL this year was the Hull derby at FC,......and HKR sold their shed out for the reverse fixture.....30,000 fans over 2 games we can't afford to ose |
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| Quote ="Call Me God"NB: I only responded to EastHull's assertion that FC didn't belong in the top tier of clubs in terms of attendances and fiscal ability.....I didn't say HKR weren't worthy, just that they were the 2nd side in the city.
3rd biggest gate i SL this year was the Hull derby at FC,......and HKR sold their shed out for the reverse fixture.....30,000 fans over 2 games we can't afford to ose'"
I was responding to one our new posters (Joff), who was unable to see the merit in derby games and couldn't grasp the virtues of "selling" the games bigger games.
Along with Wigan - Saint's games, the Hull derby is one of the biggest club fixtures in the RL calendar.
He made some comment about a Hull derby being irrelevant compared to a Man United - Liverpool derby in the round ball game due to the (inflated) population figures that he gave.
As you rightly say, given the "pull" of RL, 15,000 is an excellent attendance figure (many more for the Wigan Saints games) and we need to sell these fixtures to TV viewers, build them up, just as other sports do with their "big" games. |
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"I was responding to one our new posters (Joff), who was unable to see the merit in derby games and couldn't grasp the virtues of "selling" the games bigger games.
Along with Wigan - Saint's games, the Hull derby is one of the biggest club fixtures in the RL calendar.
He made some comment about a Hull derby being irrelevant compared to a Man United - Liverpool derby in the round ball game due to the (inflated) population figures that he gave.
As you rightly say, given the "pull" of RL, 15,000 is an excellent attendance figure (many more for the Wigan Saints games) and we need to sell these fixtures to TV viewers, build them up, just as other sports do with their "big" games.'"
the Hull derby is easily my favourite game that doesnt include Saints
Regards
King james |
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| Quote ="Lebron James"the Hull derby is easily my favourite game that doesnt include Saints
Regards
King james'"
It is for now, until the mouthwatering Toulouse vs Catalans fixture becomes a regular derby in the not too distant future. |
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| Quote ="homme vaste"It is for now, until the mouthwatering Toulouse vs Catalans fixture becomes a regular derby in the not too distant future.'"
Too right. Thats going to be an absolute pearler
Regards
King james |
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| Quote ="Joff"Incorrect. The historical 'City of Manchester' is smaller with around 500k but its widely accepted that 'Manchester' is a metro region of 2.8million. It is and will become a city region like London. Like it or not.'"
Don't talk cobblers. Apart from Trafford or Tameside none of those towns/cities consider themselves to be part of the City of Manchester based on the people I have met. Wigan is about 25 miles by car. It's like saying York, Harrogate, Huddersfield are part of Leeds. I couldn't give a hoot if it becomes a city region. There are some distinct advantages to it. |
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| Quote ="Joff"Incorrect. The historical 'City of Manchester' is smaller with around 500k but its widely accepted that 'Manchester' is a metro region of 2.8million. It is and will become a city region like London. Like it or not.'"
Your talking about Greater Manchester as a Metro County old boy, would you say Liverpool has a population of 1.4 Million ? Or is that the Metro county of Merseyside?
You cannot class; Bolton, Bury, Oldham, Rochdale, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford, Wigan and Salford in the population of Manchester as a city. |
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| Quote ="homme vaste"Your talking about Greater Manchester as a Metro County old boy, would you say Liverpool has a population of 1.4 Million ? Or is that the Metro county of Merseyside?
You cannot class; Bolton, Bury, Oldham, Rochdale, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford, Wigan and Salford in the population of Manchester as a city.'"
As union makes strides across all facets of FTA TV, we debate which pit village has too many teams......sums it up pretty well really  |
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Why is it pointless ?
Surely, we are comparing one of the top fixtures in the SL program with one of the top fixtures in the premiership.
Just because the premiership game pulls 70,000 fans and SL pulls 15,000 doesnt make it pointless, unless you are covering your ears in the style of a spoilt 7 year old and not wanting to listen.
Taken in context and given the population of Hull compared with your (inflated) population of Manchester and Liverpool, in percentage terms, there is a greater interest in the RL fixture in Hull(or Wigan (if you go for Wigan v Saints)than there is in the football (Liverpool or Manchester).
There is little point in bemoaning the fact that our sport is less popular than football as this always has been and always will be the case.
However, we can learn from how they promote their game both as clubs and within the media or, are you closed to that as well
'"
Random fact for everyone; back in the 1800s Manchester was by far a rugby city. There were rugby clubs all over. The football clubs were insignificant, other than maybe Hulme Athenaeum. Sheffield was a football city and there was a train line built between Manchester and Sheffield which saw football team pop up every now and again along that line but eventually into the Manchester conurbation.
Eventually football took over from rugby when City won the city’s first trophy in 1904 (FA Cup) and United won the city’s first league title in 1908.
From there the city’s rugby clubs fell away in popularity but just imagine what rugby might have been like in Manchester had that railway not been built! |
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Rather than squabble about the population of Manchester perhaps we should focus on the positives and the good ideas:
- we have a more interesting club game the Union (and I say that as a fan of both codes)
- we had a great RLWC last year that we need to build the international game on (though RLIF and NRL seem to be doing their best to sabotage that)
- there is a lot of potential for growth still if it is marketed correctly
Some very valid points made about the incoherence of the strategies around internationals and MW. I like Newcastle but I thought it made far more sense to have MW in Manchester which was at least reasonably easy for the majority of fans to get to whilst still being a good day out (and though it pains me to say it the Council House is a nicer ground than St James's Park).
Go back to having internationals at the larger league grounds.
I'd add far more games on Sat/Sun rather than Thurs/Fri.
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| Exeter have just recorded their third win on the trot and are still to take a shot at Goal for a penalty and have scored 17 tries to date in the Union Premiership.........whilst the All Blacks are beaten by the Box and Argentina.......yep ARGENTINA defeat Australia in internationals. Italian club side Zebre defeat Welsh powerhouse Cardiff whilst Scottish club glasgow traveled to South Africa and Leinster hosted the welsh in a sold out RDS in Dublin.....
.......we'e just shifted the system again and Adam Pearson reckons we can compete with Union now 
... |
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| Quote ="Call Me God"Italian club side Zebre defeat Welsh powerhouse Cardiff whilst Scottish club glasgow traveled to South Africa and Leinster hosted the welsh in a sold out RDS in Dublin...'"
According to supporters of small time RL clubs, playing teams from other countries will never work due to a lack of away fans. |
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October 23rd 2013.....Wasps defeated Leicester...the best supported rugby club in England whilst watched by 7,040 fans in a rented soccer ground.
5 years on, the same two sides meet in a game played in a ground now owned by Wasps.....18,102 fans in attendance......and neither of these sides are situated in the M4 Heartland, in case Adam Pearson was wondering......12k average this week and none of those pesky EVENT GAMES, although Exeter managed to get 9k for the visit of Sale, some 250kms away.
9 of the current clubs have won their comp.....4 have been relegated and returned.......I wonder if they're contemplating a middle 8 play off structure?????
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| Quote ="Call Me God"Exeter have just recorded their third win on the trot and are still to take a shot at Goal for a penalty and have scored 17 tries to date in the Union Premiership.........whilst the All Blacks are beaten by the Box and Argentina.......yep ARGENTINA defeat Australia in internationals. Italian club side Zebre defeat Welsh powerhouse Cardiff whilst Scottish club glasgow traveled to South Africa and Leinster hosted the welsh in a sold out RDS in Dublin.....
.......we'e just shifted the system again and Adam Pearson reckons we can compete with Union now
...'"
I dont know about Union but Argentina beating Australia isnt that much of a shock is it.
Rugby Union in Australia is dead |
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| Quote ="puroresu_boy"I dont know poop about Union but Argentina beating Australia isnt that much of a shock is it.
Rugby Union in Australia is dead'"
Yes it is.
That's their first victory over Oz, in Oz, since 1983. |
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| Quote ="Psychedelic Casual"Random fact for everyone; back in the 1800s Manchester was by far a rugby city. There were rugby clubs all over. The football clubs were insignificant, other than maybe Hulme Athenaeum. Sheffield was a football city and there was a train line built between Manchester and Sheffield which saw football team pop up every now and again along that line but eventually into the Manchester conurbation.
Eventually football took over from rugby when City won the city’s first trophy in 1904 (FA Cup) and United won the city’s first league title in 1908.
From there the city’s rugby clubs fell away in popularity but =#FF0000just imagine what rugby might have been like in Manchester had that railway not been built!'"
At least that's one thing we've got going for us, in Leigh. Beeching closed our railway, way back in 1969. In fact the town is now reckoned to be the largest in England without a station.  |
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Quote ="Alan"At least that's one thing we've got going for us, in Leigh. Beeching closed our railway, way back in 1969. In fact the town is now reckoned to be the largest in England without a station.
'"
Alan,i don't wish to undermine your post,but here is a list of towns on wiki without a train station from the 2011 census. I'm sure the population would have changed 7 years on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... ay_station |
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Quote ="Alan"At least that's one thing we've got going for us, in Leigh. Beeching closed our railway, way back in 1969. In fact the town is now reckoned to be the largest in England without a station.
'"
Alan,i don't wish to undermine your post,but here is a list of towns on wiki without a train station from the 2011 census. I'm sure the population would have changed 7 years on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... ay_station | |
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| Quote ="puroresu_boy" Rugby Union in Australia is dead'"
Somebody should tell the ARU that, because 120,000 watched their 3 tests v Ireland earlier this year, 110 ,000 people have attended their 3 tests in the Championship so far and now they're off to South Africa and Argentina, before heading north to play Wales, Italy and England in games where they receive a quite hefty appearance fee. |
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Quote ="Call Me God"Somebody should tell the ARU that, because 120,000 watched their 3 tests v Ireland earlier this year, 110 ,000 people have attended their 3 tests in the Championship so far and now they're off to South Africa and Argentina, before heading north to play Wales, Italy and England in games where they receive a quite hefty appearance fee.'"
On the face of it not too bad, but look a bit deeper. Its well know that Rugby Union in Australia is down and out.
https://mumbrella.com.au/just-435000-tu ... cup-525201
Quote 3
Ten’s live broadcast of the deciding Rugby test match between Australia and Ireland drew a metro audience of 435,000, which was not enough to pull the channel out of last place on the ratings ladder.'"
Taken from planet rugby forum:
Quote TRC total crowds and avg since 2012
2012 - 532'644 (44'387/match)
2013 - 488,113 (40,676/match) - Down 8.4% from previous
2014 - 430,582 (35,882 per match) - Down 12% from previous
2015 - 243,416 (40,569 per match) - Only 6 matches compared to previous 12 matches - but average up by 13%
2016 - 431,288 (35,941 per match) - 0.2% increase from 2014.
2017 - 367,318 (30,610 per match) - Down 15% from previous'"
Recent Australia matches:
https://www.austadiums.com/sport/crowds.php
Wallabies v Argentina 16k
Wallabies v South Africa 27k
Not exactly a hot ticket whether it be live or on tv.
As for TV ratings, its not even a blip on the radar. Super Rugby has about the same amount of people who watch AFL soccer on a weekly basis tuning in. |
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Quote ="Call Me God"Somebody should tell the ARU that, because 120,000 watched their 3 tests v Ireland earlier this year, 110 ,000 people have attended their 3 tests in the Championship so far and now they're off to South Africa and Argentina, before heading north to play Wales, Italy and England in games where they receive a quite hefty appearance fee.'"
On the face of it not too bad, but look a bit deeper. Its well know that Rugby Union in Australia is down and out.
https://mumbrella.com.au/just-435000-tu ... cup-525201
Quote 3
Ten’s live broadcast of the deciding Rugby test match between Australia and Ireland drew a metro audience of 435,000, which was not enough to pull the channel out of last place on the ratings ladder.'"
Taken from planet rugby forum:
Quote TRC total crowds and avg since 2012
2012 - 532'644 (44'387/match)
2013 - 488,113 (40,676/match) - Down 8.4% from previous
2014 - 430,582 (35,882 per match) - Down 12% from previous
2015 - 243,416 (40,569 per match) - Only 6 matches compared to previous 12 matches - but average up by 13%
2016 - 431,288 (35,941 per match) - 0.2% increase from 2014.
2017 - 367,318 (30,610 per match) - Down 15% from previous'"
Recent Australia matches:
https://www.austadiums.com/sport/crowds.php
Wallabies v Argentina 16k
Wallabies v South Africa 27k
Not exactly a hot ticket whether it be live or on tv.
As for TV ratings, its not even a blip on the radar. Super Rugby has about the same amount of people who watch AFL soccer on a weekly basis tuning in. | |
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Quote ="puroresu_boy"On the face of it not too bad, but look a bit deeper. Its well know that Rugby Union in Australia is down and out.
https://mumbrella.com.au/just-435000-tu ... cup-525201
Taken from planet rugby forum:
Recent Australia matches:
https://www.austadiums.com/sport/crowds.php
Wallabies v Argentina 16k
Wallabies v South Africa 27k
Not exactly a hot ticket whether it be live or on tv.
As for TV ratings, its not even a blip on the radar. Super Rugby has about the same amount of people who watch AFL soccer on a weekly basis tuning in.'"
So it's not dead then.... Just not as big as league or AFL......
Just found the 2017 accounts online. The ARU made a profit of some 30+ million, so if we're to compare "dead" union with say a lower tier sport in the UK.....something like maybe, Rugby League, there's considerably more f a pulse in 'straia than there is at Red Hall!
As for your "recent aistralian matches"......I listed the attendances for the whole years games 6) as 230,000....I didn't pick the ones I needed. TV revenue accounts for less than 50% of the income of the ARU........so they're not "hooked on TV cash" like the NRL are and sponsorship income exceeds ticket revenue, so they aren't as hug up on attendances as the AFL/NRL are either.....and unlike the RFL who pander to the needs of individual clubs who are weak, the ARU binned Western Australia for the good of the game......hard business minded decisions taken for the benefit of the business
......so I repeat. Not dead then! |
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Quote ="puroresu_boy"On the face of it not too bad, but look a bit deeper. Its well know that Rugby Union in Australia is down and out.
https://mumbrella.com.au/just-435000-tu ... cup-525201
Taken from planet rugby forum:
Recent Australia matches:
https://www.austadiums.com/sport/crowds.php
Wallabies v Argentina 16k
Wallabies v South Africa 27k
Not exactly a hot ticket whether it be live or on tv.
As for TV ratings, its not even a blip on the radar. Super Rugby has about the same amount of people who watch AFL soccer on a weekly basis tuning in.'"
So it's not dead then.... Just not as big as league or AFL......
Just found the 2017 accounts online. The ARU made a profit of some 30+ million, so if we're to compare "dead" union with say a lower tier sport in the UK.....something like maybe, Rugby League, there's considerably more f a pulse in 'straia than there is at Red Hall!
As for your "recent aistralian matches"......I listed the attendances for the whole years games 6) as 230,000....I didn't pick the ones I needed. TV revenue accounts for less than 50% of the income of the ARU........so they're not "hooked on TV cash" like the NRL are and sponsorship income exceeds ticket revenue, so they aren't as hug up on attendances as the AFL/NRL are either.....and unlike the RFL who pander to the needs of individual clubs who are weak, the ARU binned Western Australia for the good of the game......hard business minded decisions taken for the benefit of the business
......so I repeat. Not dead then! | |
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Quote ="Call Me God"So it's not dead then.... Just not as big as league or AFL......
Just found the 2017 accounts online. The ARU made a profit of some 30+ million, so if we're to compare "dead" union with say a lower tier sport in the UK.....something like maybe, Rugby League, there's considerably more f a pulse in 'straia than there is at Red Hall!
As for your "recent aistralian matches"......I listed the attendances for the whole years games 6) as 230,000....I didn't pick the ones I needed. TV revenue accounts for less than 50% of the income of the ARU........so they're not "hooked on TV cash" like the NRL are and sponsorship income exceeds ticket revenue, so they aren't as hug up on attendances as the AFL/NRL are either.....and unlike the RFL who pander to the needs of individual clubs who are weak, the ARU binned Western Australia for the good of the game......hard business minded decisions taken for the benefit of the business
......so I repeat. Not dead then!'"
Not as big is an understatement. It's a minority sport competing with AFL soccer.
Hooked on tv cash is the wrong term. Its not through choice Rugby Union in Australia isnt viewed by many people.
Where does the $30 mil profit come from?
https://www.news.com.au/sport/rugby/rug ... 0ef3f87096
Quote THE financial cost of Australian rugby’s horror 2017 has become clearer, with Rugby Australia posting a $7.5 million reversal.
RA’s annual report cites the messy axing of the Force amid the Super Rugby restructure and disappointing tickets sales for Wallabies Tests as major factors in the downturn.
RA recorded a surplus of $17.8 million following a $3.7 million surplus in 2016 but the year also included $21.6 million in government funding for the new RA headquarters in Sydney.
Without that one off injection, RA recorded an operational deficit of $3.8 million.'"
There is no amount of spin which can make that look good. |
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Quote ="Call Me God"So it's not dead then.... Just not as big as league or AFL......
Just found the 2017 accounts online. The ARU made a profit of some 30+ million, so if we're to compare "dead" union with say a lower tier sport in the UK.....something like maybe, Rugby League, there's considerably more f a pulse in 'straia than there is at Red Hall!
As for your "recent aistralian matches"......I listed the attendances for the whole years games 6) as 230,000....I didn't pick the ones I needed. TV revenue accounts for less than 50% of the income of the ARU........so they're not "hooked on TV cash" like the NRL are and sponsorship income exceeds ticket revenue, so they aren't as hug up on attendances as the AFL/NRL are either.....and unlike the RFL who pander to the needs of individual clubs who are weak, the ARU binned Western Australia for the good of the game......hard business minded decisions taken for the benefit of the business
......so I repeat. Not dead then!'"
Not as big is an understatement. It's a minority sport competing with AFL soccer.
Hooked on tv cash is the wrong term. Its not through choice Rugby Union in Australia isnt viewed by many people.
Where does the $30 mil profit come from?
https://www.news.com.au/sport/rugby/rug ... 0ef3f87096
Quote THE financial cost of Australian rugby’s horror 2017 has become clearer, with Rugby Australia posting a $7.5 million reversal.
RA’s annual report cites the messy axing of the Force amid the Super Rugby restructure and disappointing tickets sales for Wallabies Tests as major factors in the downturn.
RA recorded a surplus of $17.8 million following a $3.7 million surplus in 2016 but the year also included $21.6 million in government funding for the new RA headquarters in Sydney.
Without that one off injection, RA recorded an operational deficit of $3.8 million.'"
There is no amount of spin which can make that look good. | |
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