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| Quote ="Richie"IIRC, they had a full 17 out each game.
Look at what we did to them in 2007.
Why do we have such a hard time accepting success?
It's almost as if our supporters prefer to see their team lose, so they can bitch about it.'"
You know what I meant. The 17 they put in the Tests against us was nowhere near the same side as they had out in the World Cup. In fact, they were so weakened, I'd never heard of half the players.
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| Quote ="Richie"Whilst last year was pretty poor, the way you and many others talk, you would think the 2007 series against NZ never happened.
How did the team we stuffed do a year later?'"
OK, even if I gave you 2007 (which was against a very depleated and poor NZ setup, which if I recall correctly, changed it's coaching setup immediately afterwards) last year was more than embarassing and that was with Smith full time, how can it possibly help the situation to go backwards and then make him part time?
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| Quote ="Fully"You know what I meant. The 17 they put in the Tests against us was nowhere near the same side as they had out in the World Cup. In fact, they were so weakened, I'd never heard of half the players.'"
You know what....the 17 England play this series will be quite different to that of 2008. Will Australia and NZ be trying to qualify out their wins over us in 2008 because of that?
Why do we find it so hard to accept success?
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| Quote ="roamintherange"OK, even if I gave you 2007 (which was against a very depleated and poor NZ setup, which if I recall correctly, changed it's coaching setup immediately afterwards) '"
So why so keen to make excuses for when another country loses, but when it's England everyone wants to revel in misery?
Quote ="roamintherange"last year was more than embarassing and that was with Smith full time, how can it possibly help the situation to go backwards and then make him part time?'"
Was he actually coaching full time, or did he have other responsibilities that have now been filled by others?
I have already said why I don't feel the role is a full time one.
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| Quote ="Richie"Is it a full time job though? What does he do for 10 months of the year? Who are you going to get for the job if it's a full time role? The honest answer is that we would get a coach not regareded as good enough to have an SL or NRL head coaching position.
There also the fact that in a sport not awash with cash, a full time England coach might not be the best use of what would be a much greater expense for a full time coach than it would for a PT coach.'"
I think it is a full time job yes. How is it the world champions, without essentially a major league in their own country to develop (as they mostly use the NRL and Super League) can operate a full time coach yet here in the UK the RFL don't beleive it to be a worth while investment? If it's as part time as you make out with the leagues we have running and the size of our organisation in the UK, Stephen Kearney must be bored out of his t@ts.
ATEOTD we are not Australia and everything is not running tickety-boo
You cannot tell me that a Full time national head coach could not use his time wisely by going round each UK club, not just Superleague, meeting players, watching training sessions, advising head coaches, bringing together train on squads and trying to help youth development to it's full potential in this country.
OK this might not simply fall under the job description of just a head coach but surely this would be a worthwhile investment (and not a million miles away from what Smith was doing in the first place, it appears he just simply wanted to get back in to a head coaches job). I'm not saying it would be glamerous but do feel it is partly (a big part as well) to do with why our international teams fail so badly when it comes to the big stage.
At least they would be involved on a full time basis, what would be wrong with taking the elite players into train on squads throughout the year once a fortnight maybe, teams don't do set play training 5 days a week they have weight sessions/cardio or day's off, surely theres a way to take these elite players out with the agreement of the clubs for the good of the national game without affecting the domestic one to much?
I appreciate it may not be ideal and may not work but just feel there has to be a better way to maximise international player development within the current structure of Super League and National Leagues?
As far as the Coach goes, well at this point I get stuck becuase I can't think of anyone but IMO you'd need perhaps a decorated quality coach who is looking to slow down a bit, doesn't want the day in day out of a club head coach but is looking to stay heavily involved in the game (a Bobby Robson of 10 years back if you like). One thing people will never agree on is who that should be, there has to be someone good enough out there after 150 years, isn't there?
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| Quote ="Richie"So why so keen to make excuses for when another country loses, but when it's England everyone wants to revel in misery?'"
I'm not keen to revel in the misery and I was please with the 2007 series win but you cannot say it was against the same New Zealand that was at the world cup.
I am as keen as many other British fan's in seeing our National teams be the best in the world but when you don't agree with the current setup unfortunately it maybe reads as though we a reveling
Quote ="Richie"Was he actually coaching full time, or did he have other responsibilities that have now been filled by others?
I have already said why I don't feel the role is a full time one.'"
As a national coach it would be impossible to coach full time however as I have mentioned in my last post IMO the role of head national coach in rugby league must be a lot broader than just coaching. I still don't believe that it can be a forward step by making the head coach part time. It would be like having a full time sales guy with a part time sales manager, where's the motivation coming from?
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| tbh i thought david waite was doing a good job back in the day
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| Quote ="GIANT DAZ"i think its fair to say that if TS wasn't the Warrington coach that Bridge and Harrison would hav ebeen laughed at by said gentleman if someone suggested adding them to an England squad.
Huddersfield and Hull KR have had great seasons but we only have 3 players picked - Scott Moore is a Saints player in reality - between us, i'm sure if its just a train-on squad it wouldn't have hurt to throw a couple of players from either club in there to give them the 'experience' of training with the 'elite' players. !'"
You have had a great season but what have you won....You need to look at internationals as one off cup matches where a team is picked to peak.And winning the cup shows he has the ability to pick such teams.
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| Quote ="roamintherange"I'm not keen to revel in the misery and I was please with the 2007 series win but you cannot say it was against the same New Zealand that was at the world cup. '"
Course not. Every team changes every year. Teams that lose tend to change more than teams that win.
Quote ="roamintherange"I am as keen as many other British fan's in seeing our National teams be the best in the world but when you don't agree with the current setup unfortunately it maybe reads as though we a reveling'"
There are plenty on this thread who have clearly dismissed the 2007 success. We have seen Smith described as a failure - despite 2007 being a complete demolition of the team that later became World Champs.
We have seen a team that was completely smashed by England come back to win the World Cup just a year later.
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| Quote ="roamintherange"I think it is a full time job yes. How is it the world champions, without essentially a major league in their own country to develop (as they mostly use the NRL and Super League) can operate a full time coach yet here in the UK the RFL don't beleive it to be a worth while investment? If it's as part time as you make out with the leagues we have running and the size of our organisation in the UK, Stephen Kearney must be bored out of his t@ts.
Quote
Except Kearney is employed full-time by the Melbourne Storm and so isn't even in the same State or Country as the majority of his players most of the time.
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| Harrison is a cracking player and Bridge is one of the best british centres when fit.
Don't see the problem.
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| Quote ="Dico"tbh i thought david waite was doing a good job back in the day'"
he was doing the off field stuff well, just a shame he was a rubbish coach. he was of the "pick the best 13 players regardless of position and fit them in somewhere" coaching school, which resulted in us having 5 loose forwards playing at a time.
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| You know what the funny thing is?
There is one guy who is a specialist at bringing together a representative side, simplifying their game, giving them a few things to break down the opposition with and giving them all the self belief in the world.
Problem is, he couldn't be stuffed to go back down the levels to coach your park footballers.
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| Quote ="nathanwood7"Quote ="roamintherange"I think it is a full time job yes. How is it the world champions, without essentially a major league in their own country to develop (as they mostly use the NRL and Super League) can operate a full time coach yet here in the UK the RFL don't beleive it to be a worth while investment? If it's as part time as you make out with the leagues we have running and the size of our organisation in the UK, Stephen Kearney must be bored out of his t@ts.
Quote
Except Kearney is employed full-time by the Melbourne Storm and so isn't even in the same State or Country as the majority of his players most of the time.'" '" '"
I thought Kearney lessened his capacity at mebourne when he took the Kiwi role and McGuire stepped up to assistant coach?
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| Kearney is an assistant coach at Melbourne and can be seen sat next to Bellamy at all their games, so he certainly doesn't concentrate solely on the Kiwis as was suggested.
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| Kearney is an assistant coach at Melbourne and can be seen sat next to Bellamy at all their games, so he certainly doesn't concentrate solely on the Kiwis as was suggested. Ditto Sheens for Aus.
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| Quote ="Richie"Course not. Every team changes every year. Teams that lose tend to change more than teams that win.'"
Which is exactly most peoples point, whilst New Zealand have moved forward we appear to be moving backwards or at the very least standing still, either way it's not good
Quote ="Richie"There are plenty on this thread who have clearly dismissed the 2007 success. We have seen Smith described as a failure - despite 2007 being a complete demolition of the team that later became World Champs.
We have seen a team that was completely smashed by England come back to win the World Cup just a year later.'"
Again Smith is being touted as a failure not because of a succcesful 2007 but because of failures since then. If New Zealands progression to win the world cup is classed as a success surely Englands failure to kick on from 2007 must be classed as a failure.
Let's just wait and see what happens in a months time, I'll be happy to come back and eat a bit of humble pie if I'm wrong.
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| Quote ="nathanwood7"Kearney is an assistant coach at Melbourne and can be seen sat next to Bellamy at all their games, so he certainly doesn't concentrate solely on the Kiwis as was suggested.'"
My bad
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| Quote ="roamintherange"Which is exactly most peoples point, whilst New Zealand have moved forward we appear to be moving backwards or at the very least standing still, either way it's not good'"
Moving backwards or standing still since when?
Of course we moved backwards since 2007 (if 2007 ever actually happened) with a poor performance in 2008. But then again, the Aussies must have moved backwards too seeing as they failed to win.
How can we have moved backwards, forwards or anything since then?
Quote ="roamintherange"Again Smith is being touted as a failure not because of a succcesful 2007 but because of failures since then. If New Zealands progression to win the world cup is classed as a success surely Englands failure to kick on from 2007 must be classed as a failure.'"
Failure s?
In two major tournaments under Smith, we've been great in one and poor in one. You deem that making the coach a failure?
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| I think that to develop the international game it would make sence for Tony to be able to invite all british eligible players for train-on squad, but this only affects the country they play for if they swap to play for england.
So value for players, mixing youth with the top players of the moment, but they can still go back to play for Ireland/Scotland.
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| Quote ="Richie"Moving backwards or standing still since when?
Of course we moved backwards since 2007 (if 2007 ever actually happened)'"
So we agree then
Quote ="Richie"But then again, the Aussies must have moved backwards too seeing as they failed to win.'"
By their standards, absolutely. Do you think most Aussies view their world cup a succcess?
Quote ="Richie"How can we have moved backwards, forwards or anything since then?'"
Since 2008, although we have played no tournaments and indeed beaten the French since , we have moved backwars IMO because we have gone from a full time coaching setup to a part time one.
Quote ="Richie"In two major tournaments under Smith, we've been great in one and poor in one. You deem that making the coach a failure?'"
Seeing as the one that we were poor in (and let's face it we weren't poor, we were e) was the most recent one, many people would say YES.
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| Quote ="roamintherange"So we agree then'"
Of course.
What were you expecting? A World Cup win?
Quote ="roamintherange"By their standards, absolutely. Do you think most Aussies view their world cup a succcess?'"
but yet they are not all "woe is me" "we might as well not bother"
Quote ="roamintherange"Since 2008, although we have played no tournaments and indeed beaten the French since
, we have moved backwars IMO because we have gone from a full time coaching setup to a part time one.'"
So not related to results or performance at all?
Quote ="roamintherange"Seeing as the one that we were poor in (and let's face it we weren't poor, we were poop) was the most recent one, many people would say YES.'"
If you're going to claim we were poop in 2008, I'm going to claim we were awesome in 2007. In which case on your measurement basis we have a two year result of being OK.
On my measurement basis one great year + one bad year = another year to see what happens next but you aren't deemed a failure yet.
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| I think Welham was very unlucky to miss out. Played every game for a top four team and scored 13 tries in the process. Not too shabby for his first full season.
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| Quote ="Captain Charisma"I think Welham was very unlucky to miss out. Played every game for a top four team and scored 13 tries in the process. Not too shabby for his first full season.'"
Don't talk wet man. Kris is a decent kid but is a million miles away from being good enough to pull on an international shirt.
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| Quote ="The Goroka Gene-ius"Don't talk wet man. Kris is a decent kid but is a million miles away from being good enough to pull on an international shirt.'"
That's as maybe, but since this is the [uEngland train on[/u squad he might consider himself unlucky not to be involved.
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