some people are debating whether or not Sinfield should be in the team.

A guy who is IMO one of, if not the best loose forward in SL due to his kicking ability. He can also fit in at 6 (which he has been doing an outstanding job for in place of Mcguire) he also can fill in at hooker.

some people are picking o'loughlin over sinfield? that seems crazy to me, as having sinfield playing (90 mins) is like having an extra stand off and hooker on the bench. and the bench can then be 4 forwards.

The problem with Sinfield (in some people's reasoning) is that he's an inbetween, a jack of all trades. There are better forward orientated players, among them Lockers, and yet he's not a player people consider to have the ability to be an all out half back.

In club rugby, I think you can get away with it, having a guy like this at 13, but when you're up against the Kiwi or Aussie pack, watering down the physicality of the forwards is a poor move.

I have a lot of respect for Sinfield, mainly because I think his on field execution of game plan beat my side for 3 GFs on the trot, but I think [iif[/i he's playing for us, it should be in one of the half backs shirt.

I don't think it does particularly water down the forwards having Sinfield at 13 since his defence is good. The problem has been that Sinfield has been picked at 13 at international level whilst not playing the same role as he does at Leeds and being expected to be an extra second rower. If we're going to have Sinfield at 13 we have to make sure he's playing the same role as he does at Leeds otherwise he should be at 6 or not in the squad.

If we want a workhorse 13 rather than a ball playing 13 then look no further than O'Loughlin. If we want a ball playing 13 then it's Sinfield.

This post sums up some of the problems that England / GB have had over the years.

There is not point picking a team of the best players in their positions and then the coach telling them to play in a different way to what they are used to or in a way that is not based on their strengths.


The coach has to decide the system he wants to play , how he wants players to play and THEN pick the players who can do the job he wants.

Last year Kevin Brown played poorly because his way of playing in a tight structured, organised team was very different to the role that McBanana wanted him to play, so it exacerbated his weaknesses and none of his strengths.

The same was true of Crabtree who was told play it tight and do not offload. What is the point of having a prop whose strength is offloading the ball and then telling him not to do it.


There is no point picking Sinfield and then saying to him, your job is to tackle non stop and bring the ball up strongly.

Both o'Loughlin and Sinfield could be first choice LFs depending on what job the coach wants them to do and how to play.

What i think would be wrong would be picking him for his versatility at hooker etc as that is such a pivotal position and there are 3 players in the squads who are far better at hooker than him.

Spot on Durham. Too often we've picked good players but played them either out of position or doing a different job to which they're used to. Richard Horne on the wing being an obvious example. As we've seen when some Aussies come to SL, they're not supermen (apart from Brent Webb obviously) who are so monumentally better than our lads that we don't ever stand a chance. They have a better setup, a better mentality thanks to Origin and a more competitive comp, plus a couple of freaks in Inglis & Lockyer. If we get ourselves sorted off the field and really give em a battering in the first 10 mins we've got a chance.

I'm sure the Aussies are arguing about whether to pick a smaller 13 with good skills because he can slot in all over the place, or a big 13 who'll beast more in defence and attack, and is actually a perfectly good ball-player.

Perhaps they just pick the best man to do the best job at 13 and let the half-backs worry about the rest.

I admire Sinfield as a player (even though he's a whiney bastrd), but against the Ockers/Kiwis you need the biggest and best. It's a hard enough task to beat them but if you give them a weight and size advantage in the pack it's twice as hard. Lockers for me, every time.

1. Tomkins
2. Hall
3. Shenton
4. Yeaman
5. Briscoe
6. Brown (would say McGuire but he's not had chance to prove himself yet)
7. Brough
8. Morley
9. Roby
10. Graham
11. Westwood
12. O'Loughlin
13. Sinfield

14. Robinson
15. Peacock
16. Crabtree
17. Harrison

Regarding the centre spot – the senior squad that McNamara selected has Bridge, Welham, Shenton and Clubb as players who play there week in week out plus Tomkins and Cudjoe (Tomkins is listed as a forward but has played the season in the centre and Cudjoe is more of a versatile back)

Add to this the centres from the Knights squad which include Arundel, Atkins, Lawrence and Watkins

I suspect that the centres for the Exiles game will come from this list and probably the 4 Nations as well

Welham is in the senior squad and has 14 tries to his name against Yeaman’s 15 this year – surely this indicates that he is favourite for the left centre spot? I would suggest Shenton for the right pushed by Bridge

I'd have Sinfield at 6 ahead of Brown, especially if Tompkins is FB and active in the attacking pattern, and leave the Sinfield/O'Loughlin debate for another day when Widdop and McGuire are fit and available.

Strongest side available:

S Tompkins

Briscoe
Shenton
Bridge
Hall

Sinfield
Brough

Peacock
Roby
Graham
Westwood
Patrick
O'Loughlin

Robinson
J.Tompkins
Morley
Crabtree

The Sinfield/O'Loughlin debate is not over who is better, it's over what role you want from your loose forward.

And that depends entirely on who's playing halfback, and how good their kicking/organising game is.

Indeed - if you're playing Widdop/Brough as your halfback combination then you need an extra runner at 13 rather than another playmaker.

A couple of runners in the halves such as Tomkins and Brown, you'll need an organiser/tactical kicker at 13.

1. Tomkins
2. Hall
3. Shenton
4. Yeaman
5. Briscoe
6. McGuire
7. Brough
8. Morley
9. Roby
10. Graham
11. Westwood
12. O'Loughlin
13. Sinfield

14. Robinson
15. Peacock
16. Crabtree
17. Harrison

Yet Brough at Hudds often plays with Brown, Robinson, Lunt, and Faiumu. Sometimes on the pitch at the same time.

What's your point?

Of those, arguably only Robinson is an additional playmaker with the others posing more of a running threat.

really, 3 hookers, a 6 and a 7 and only 2 of them act as playmakers?

My point is, im not sure we have to limit our selves to one/two playmakers, many teams play, at times, with 3 or 4 even 5 pivots in the side, it makes their plays harder to read, allows them to play more expansive RL, keeps the defence guessing.

Sinfield is playing at standoff this year not loose. When both are playing at loose forward O'Loughlin is easily as good as Sinfield with ball in hand. Look at the stats in 2010 when both were at 13 ...

[urlhttp://www.superleague.co.uk/statistics_player.php?hs1=2010&hp1=580&hs2=2010&hp2=263&stat=tries&season=2011[/url

He scores more trys, more asists, more metres, and more tackles. Sinfield is a quality player and is performing well at the moment and tbh i think he suits playing 6 more. This year at 6 is stats are great ...

[urlhttp://www.superleague.co.uk/statistics_player.php?hs1=2011&hp1=580&hs2=2011&hp2=263&stat=tries&season=2011[/url

TBF to O'Loughlin this year he's been rested alot and played only 40-50 mins in a good 6 or 7 games atleast, and has rarely played the full 80. But the stats show how good Sinfield has been, but at 6 thats were he should be for England aswell. As has previously been mentioned Sam Tomkins at 1 brings the running game of a 6 into the attacking dimensions and Brough is'nt a bad runner of the ball as he's proved with some of his trys this year. A core set of playmakers in ...

1. Tomkins
6. Sinfield
7. Brough
9. Roby
13. O'Loughlin
S. Robinson

A good mixture of organisers and runners all imo of course.

Mcguire is a far far better 6 than Sinfield. Sinfield played half the season at 6 last season as well with Mcguire playing 7 when Burrow was injured.

Sinfield is better with ball in hand, the try assist stat is notoriously inconsistant, but Sinfield offloads more, his passing is better and more consistent, and he has a much better kicking game.

I see nothing in putting a 'bigger' player like O'loughlin at 13 that wouldnt be achieved by playing 2 props and 2 2nd rowers on the bench

My team (not withstanding injuries)

1 Tomkins/Widdop
2 Hall
3 whoever, doesnt really matter, we can go for an experienced average player like Atkins, Yeaman, or Bridge, or give a shot to a young gun like Watkins or Lawrence.
4 Shenton
5 Briscoe
6 Mcguire
7 Brough (im not sold on him, I dont think he is the answer, but he is the form 7 and has earned his shot)
8 Graham
9 Roby
10 Peacock
11 Ellis
12 O'loughlin
13 Sinfield

14 Burgess
15 Morley
16 J Tomkins
17 Crabtree

It gives us flexibility, Tomkins can cover centre so with a bit of rejigging the backs are covered, Sinfield can cover 13/6 and 9 and Mcguire 7 so the halves are covered and hooker are covered.

We go with a big strong pack, lots of impact on that bench,

ellis & burgess are'nt coming back for it

sorry, that should say (not withstanding injuries or players being in Aus)

If we're picking half backs that can't kick/organise, then we might as well give up now.

With Brough in the side, and Roby able to play 80 minutes, there's no place for Sinfield IMO.

He's a very good player and an absolute must in a Leeds team with no real kicking game from the halves, but with a kicking game like Brough's he's simply not required and we're better off with someone with better and more punishing defence and a more size to take us forward.

Too many cooks can spoil the broth though. It can keep the defence guessing, but sometimes the attack is a bit more destabilised because there are too many people trying to call the shots.

It can indeed, but im not sure we have that 'luxury' of having too many cooks spoiling the broth.

How about : Too many cheifs and not enough indians?

Welham is worth a go at centre, he has improved massively and his defence has been brilliant this season. His attacking play is up with the best so far this season.