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| Quote ="headhunter"Fair enough if they weren't in liquidation, I think it's still difficult to argue that they weren't in a worse state than Crusaders though. Crusaders entered adminsitration and registered a new trading name to clear a multitude of debts from the previous owners, they are stable, as you say it was a planned administration because it would be impossible for the club to operate properly with the weight of debts that weren't anything to do with them. Presumably that's why the RFL were lenient. Widnes on the other hand were in dire straits, players were leaving and as far as I'm aware the club was going out of existence until O'Connor stepped in. Any amount of help from the RFL would have been pointless as there was no owner and the club couldn't function. It's pretty irrelevant now as Widnes have proven themselves to be stable and will be granted a license this time. But when the initial decision was made, it was only a few weeks after this had happened, there was no guarantee that O'Connor was in for the long haul etc, so I don't feel the RFL were wrong to leave Widnes out until they could prove themselves, which they have. Remember there was no guarantee that Leighton Samuel would turn out to be a crook and Crusaders would have been mismanaged the way they were in the South either, they were in a stronger position off the field than Widnes at the time.'"
I'm sorry but, How can you even begin to justify Crusaders existance in Super League???
Its been a sham from start to finish...and because of this, The game of Rugby League has been severely damaged, and its reputation torn to shreds.
For your sake, I hope Crusaders now make a go of it, because anything less than a spectacular success would result in a worldwide disaster for the future of Super League & Rugby league in general, and embarrassment & anger on a monmental scale. |
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| Quote ="headhunter"But when the initial decision was made, it was only a few weeks after this had happened, there was no guarantee that O'Connor was in it for the long haul so I don't feel the RFL were wrong to leave Widnes out until they could prove themselves, which they have. Remember there was no guarantee that Leighton Samuel would turn out to be a crook and Crusaders would have been mismanaged the way they were in the South either, they were in a stronger position off the field than Widnes at the time.'"
Apart from his offer a half million pounds cash bond up front. |
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| Quote ="Spongolium"This thread is so full of fail it's unreal. When did it become cool to be a "troll"
Crusaders haven't done anything for the game? I wonder what sky would do, if the RFL wasn't so keen on expansion into different area's. Rugby League is the fastest growing sport in Wales. Over 250 schools have started playing league since the inception of the Crusaders. There are now two teams in Wales that can compete with the rest of their leagues. We have an international team that is not only playing well, but growing incredibly quickly, something that in future years should provide a very good opposition to the english to help you improve. Are Wales not going to be hosting the 2013 Rugby world cup? I thought the crusaders didn't do anything. Well then why is it that Welsh rugby league is growing for the first time since before union went pro?
=#FF4000Oh and starbug, it's not the amount of games that the welsh boys have played for the crusaders, but more around the fact that they had a chance to play league. The following players would not be playing rugby league right now if it was not for the Celtic Crusaders
Lloyd White (union player)
Ben Flower (union player)
Gareth Thomas (union player)
Gil Dudson (union player)
Elliot Kear * not sure
Christiaan Roets (union)
=#8000BFThey might not be playing regularly for the saders, but none of them would even be in the game if it was not for them.
You flat cap northerns(or should i call you trolls) are so bitter about a "historic" team in Widnes not being admitted, that you are willing to rag on the crusaders at any oportunity. Widnes were weeks out of admin. There is no knowing what Widnes would of become had they entered superleague. I think personally, being left out of the licences the first time around was the best thing the RL could do for Widnes. They have a supurb stadium, and are chomping at the bit to gain entry into superleague. They have sorted all of their problems off the field, and will be a competative team in superleague.
Oh yeah, It's funny that any mention of the Crusaders and Widnes are mentioned immediatly after. Get over yourselves. Anyway, keep fighting teh good fight. Rugby league would still be in the same place it was 20 years ago, and 20 years into the future if not for expansion.'"
The argument is the number of games these players have played for the Crusaders IN SL ?
If you cannot answer that then you have no argument
If these players are at the SWS then it is they who should be credited with their development , and to all intensome purposes they are the original Celtic Crusaders based in south Wales |
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| Quote ="headhunter"Widnes had been out of administration for a matter of weeks when the license applications were submitted. It's alright to look in hindsight but they were in a far, far worse situation than Crusaders are in now, IIRC they actually went into liquidation, all their players were made free agents etc only to be re-signed later when O'Connor bought the club. I agree that international comparisons are by no means an accurate way of judging a club's success, but you stated that Crusaders had done nothing for the game. My opinion is that the RFL should have been more thorough in their investigation of the South Wales club and given them more support, rather than leaving the club in the hands of people like Mike Turner who had no idea how to manage it properly. The reason it failed in the South is through shambolic administration and it's the fault of the people who were running the club at the time, not the RFL for including them. If the club had been administrated properly then there was every chance of it being a success. I don't think there have been any sort of damages to 'credibility' though, other than through the eyes of RL's own paranoid fans. Nobody is laughing at the game, but a lot more people are interested in it now.
People talk about Widnes as if they would be one of the biggest clubs in the game and would take Super League to another level, and there's no evidence to suggest that would be the case at all. They would probably won about the same number of games as Crusaders have in the two years and had average crowds of maybe 1-2000 more than Wrexham had last year, although those fans would almost all be existing RL fans rather than new converts. I would be surprised if they had done significantly better than Crusaders, certainly in the second year. Do they deserve a place? Probably yes, although I still am not convinced that they would be as big a club as Super League should be aspiring to be made up of, although they do have potential for growth. Were they hard done by? I don't feel that they were, and they are almost definitely going to be included this time anyway so it doesn't really make too much difference now. For what it's worth though, despite all their faults, mistakes and the absoulte mass of hatred directed towards them, I think having Crusaders in Super League has been of much more benefit to the game than taking the (in hindsight) safe option of including Widnes would have been. Can anyone say what great benefit Widnes would have provided that the league is currently lacking? That's not to say they don't deserve a place, just when people argue that they would have done so much more for the game, I don't see how that is true. If anything, advocates of Widnes should be arguing for their inclusion ahead of Salford. I think they would probably have performed better than Salford have in the last two years, and would have arguably contributed 'more to the game' than Salford have. To say that they would have contributed more than Crusaders is rubbish.'"
You are a complete muppet, a total shambles of a post if ever i saw one.
You dont know bugger all about Widnes or our ambitions. |
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| Quote ="headhunter"Somebody has already replied to your boring question.'"
Have they ? , then you would have no problem giving me the answer to my question then would you ? |
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| Quote ="tb"No. They got in because they were one of the best 14 BIDS.
'"
You should try taking some of your own advice sometimes... "Doubt everything, even this".
And if you genuinely believe that a club that has gone bust twice in 2 years had a solid, sustainable and robust bid that was up there with the best 14, then you really are away with the fairies. |
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| Quote ="-VIKINGMAN-"You are a complete muppet, a total shambles of a post if ever i saw one.
You dont know bugger all about Widnes or our ambitions.'"
When O'Connor's plans come to fruition and we're rivalling the best once again, this lot will be eating their words. |
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tb is always the same, it will be interesting if Cas got threw out for 2012, im sure he would take it on the chin and applaud the RFL.
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| Quote ="-VIKINGMAN-"tb is always the same, it will be interesting if Cas got threw out for 2012, im sure he would take it on the chin and applaud the RFL.'"
I was looking for the post a few days ago where he stated that the RFL should not have guaranteed a Championship club a place in 2012 , and that it should not happen again , I wonder if that opinion will continue if Cas are the club to get the drop ? |
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| Quote ="tb"
On the face of it, I'd have gone for a six point deduction myself … I'd like to see the reasoning for the four point deduction before I form a judgement on it. Unfortunately, the story on the RFL website gives no reasoning or quote from the RFL, simply comments from the club.'"
Quite. I think the fact that the RFL posts comments from the Crusaders on its own website whilst neglecting any official comment of its own speaks volumes. |
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| Quote ="Starbug"Have they ? , then you would have no problem giving me the answer to my question then would you ?'" No, because you are a boring, negative poster, your question was irrelevant and I don't have time for you. |
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| Quote ="headhunter"No, because you are a boring, negative poster, your question was irrelevant and I don't have time for you.'"
So thats a no then , they aren't responsible for 12 of the Welsh team , thanks for confirming it |
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| Quote ="Starbug"So thats a no then , they aren't responsible for 12 of the Welsh team , thanks for confirming it'" Somebody has already answered your question. The fact that you chose to ignore their response and instead have persisted with asking irrelevant questions in an attempt to unearth some sort of negativity that you can exploit speaks volumes about you and why I cannot be bothered to engage with you. Like I said on another thread, if you don't like RL then go away. |
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| Quote ="headhunter":3bhr29ic=#FF0000:3bhr29icSomebody has already answered your question.:3bhr29ic The fact that you chose to ignore their response and instead have persisted with asking irrelevant questions in an attempt to unearth some sort of negativity that you can exploit speaks volumes about you and why I cannot be bothered to engage with you. Like I said on another thread, if you don't like RL then go away.'" improvement of the Welsh squad and it's performance in the Euro Cup |
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| Quote ="Gahan"The penalty for the offence was a deduction of upto 6 points.
Not sure what you want explaining, no other decisions get explained, why would this one?'"
Can I really be bothered replying to that...oh go on then. There should be transparency around these kind of decisions. Why does one team get effectively 3 wins deducted and another only 2. What are the criteria:
- only just went into administration - 2 points
- went quite badly into administration - 4 points
- completely cream crackered into administration - 6 points
or
- expansion team who won't make the playoff if we deduct 6 points and Sky won't be happy about that (and Wigan) - 4 points
- everyone else - 6 points |
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| Quote ="mapleyther"Can I really be bothered replying to that...oh go on then. There should be transparency around these kind of decisions. Why does one team get effectively 3 wins deducted and another only 2. '"
Seek and you shall find
According to the LE, the Crusaders have agreed to pay a substantial amount of their debt, that's why they've only been deducted 4 points.
The 9 point deductions are when clubs write off all or most of the debt.
Or words similar to that but you get the drift |
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| Quote ="Gahan"Seek and you shall find
According to the LE, the Crusaders have agreed to pay a substantial amount of their debt, that's why they've only been deducted 4 points.
The 9 point deductions are when clubs write off all or most of the debt.
Or words similar to that but you get the drift'"
Only championship & championship 1 teams get 9 points taken off them, because its 3pts for a win in the Championship, and only 2 pts for a win in Super League.
Thats why the maximum points deduction in Super League is 6pts. |
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| Quote ="Gahan"Seek and you shall find
According to the LE, the Crusaders have agreed to pay a substantial amount of their debt, that's why they've only been deducted 4 points.
The 9 point deductions are when clubs write off all or most of the debt.
Or words similar to that but you get the drift'"
It's very annoying that there is a rational explanation for this, how about everyone on RLFANS pretend we haven't seen this and then we can carry on with all manner of conspiracy theories and "it's not fair" whining? |
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| Quote ="Kelvin's Ferret"It's very annoying that there is a rational explanation for this, [ihow about everyone on RLFANS pretend we haven't seen this and then we can carry on with all manner of conspiracy theories and "it's not fair" whining?[/i'"
Don't worry, they will. |
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| Quote ="Gahan"Seek and you shall find
According to the LE, the Crusaders have agreed to pay a substantial amount of their debt, that's why they've only been deducted 4 points.
The 9 point deductions are when clubs write off all or most of the debt.
Or words similar to that but you get the drift'"
So effectively they bought points off the RFL, as they owed a lot to them but by paying more lose less points, smashing that! |
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| Quote ="tb"Quote ="Kelvin's Ferret"It's very annoying that there is a rational explanation for this, [ihow about everyone on RLFANS pretend we haven't seen this and then we can carry on with all manner of conspiracy theories and "it's not fair" whining?[/i'"
Don't worry, they will.'"
Ooh, that's scary because that's [iexactly[/i what happened.
Mystic tb. He sees the future. |
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Would it be churlish to ask why this news was found in LE and not direct from the RFL?
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| Quote ="J20"So effectively they bought points off the RFL, as they owed a lot to them but by paying more lose less points, smashing that!'"
I wasn't aware the RFL was the only creditor Crusaders had.
Do you work for the administrators by any chance? |
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| Quote ="Andy Gilder"I wasn't aware the RFL was the only creditor Crusaders had.
Do you work for the administrators by any chance?'"
Don't recall saying they were? But they have been in talks with them for the past few weeks. And is this at best another new rule based on administration & points deductions then? |
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It is?
What was previous rule then?
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