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| Quote ="Dally"To be fair he coached a team to try to win the game. Too many times we've tried to contain Australia and hope to sniff something out. His game plan worked well for 20 minutes until the big pack got tired and started making mistakes and then giving penalties away. I think he was positive and that is the only way we'll win. We need to be positive but not stupid in throwing it about willy nilly but we need to be solid defensively and disciplined. it's just hard to bring everything together for 80 minutes though. I think maybe our pack is too big and inexperienced at a high level for us to sustain things.'"
It wasn't so much a tired pack but the replacement pack that was the problem. If you add Graham, O'Loughlin and McIlorum for Mossop, Ablett and Widdop then the game probably goes differently.
Around the period your subs come on is where the game changed
Mins 27 - 45.....Aus 22-0 England
Rest of the match.....Aus 6-20 England
An 18 minute spell we let cost us because WE let momentum slip, not Australia wrestled away, WE lost.
Watching the Australian team they were good and effective, but nothing amazing that is unstoppable or unbeatable.
After watching today the 1 team that most stands in our way in this tournament.......is England.
We have to cut out the shooting ourselves in the foot. Cut out the knock ons, the silly penalties, go with a two hooker system instead of moving halves around.
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| Quote ="ThePrinter"It wasn't so much a tired pack but the replacement pack that was the problem. If you add Graham, O'Loughlin and McIlorum for Mossop, Ablett and Widdop then the game probably goes differently.
Around the period your subs come on is where the game changed
Mins 27 - 45.....Aus 22-0 England
Rest of the match.....Aus 6-20 England
An 18 minute spell we let cost us because WE let momentum slip, not Australia wrestled away, WE lost.
Watching the Australian team they were good and effective, but nothing amazing that is unstoppable or unbeatable.
After watching today the 1 team that most stands in our way in this tournament.......is England.
We have to cut out the shooting ourselves in the foot. Cut out the knock ons, the silly penalties, go with a two hooker system instead of moving halves around.'"
Good points. But the way I was looking at it was we wouldn't have need to rotate if the big guys weren't tired.
I agree with a stronger bench we'd have done better but there will be injuries and maybe suspensions during the tournament and so the strength of the 24 will be important and, as you have highlighted, there are weakneses. Australia were at about 40% of their optimum today. For these reasins I think you are being a little over-optimistic.
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| Quote ="Starbug"For pure talent no issue, any position outside the pack was easy for John, defencively strong, many a forward tried to intimidate him, they usualy ended up face first into the turf after a perfect Cumberland throw , pace to burn, incredible step, perfect handling not to mention a kicking game both from hand and floor that very few have ever matched, plus he only ever wanted to play for his home town team'"
Don't bother wasting your breath - The guy you are arguing with believes Kevin Sinfield is a better stand off than John Woods.... He's obviously mentally ill.
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| Couldn't beleive the state of the pitch today...looked like we were playing at Glastonbury
Players losing their footing (Slater slipped 3 times on one early kick return) & fist sized chunks coming off the surface. Spoiled the game a bit for me, made the more agile players less of a threat.
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| Quote ="Dita's Slot Meter"Don't bother wasting your breath - The guy you are arguing with believes Kevin Sinfield is a better stand off than John Woods.... He's obviously mentally ill.'"
What I said was Sinfield is, IMO, a better all round RL player. I also feel he did a better job today that Wood would hypothetically have done.
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| I'd love a carbon copy of Woods at Warrington right now, preferably the Leigh version but I'd take the Wire version if that was on offer.
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| Quote ="Dally"What I said was Sinfield is, IMO, a better all round RL player. I also feel he did a better job today that Wood would hypothetically have done.'"
Could Sinfield play full back? ,wing maybe? ,centre perhaps, 6 and 7 ? ,John played all of them , usually much better than the players who had it as their recognised position, Sinfield is a 13 , but not as good a 13 as O,loughlin, but he can kick, but ultimatley it shows the weakness within british RL, that he is potentially our best option at HB
I dont know how good or bad he was today I havent watched it yet
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| Quote ="Dally"Good points. But the way I was looking at it was we wouldn't have need to rotate if the big guys weren't tired.
I agree with a stronger bench we'd have done better but there will be injuries and maybe suspensions during the tournament and so the strength of the 24 will be important and, as you have highlighted, there are weakneses. Australia were at about 40% of their optimum today. For these reasins I think you are being a little over-optimistic.'"
It's test match vs Australia, you're going have to beat them with 17 guys not 13. Had Mossop and Tom kept up the good work then maybe George and Hill wouldn't have been so tired having to try wrestle the momentum back which had been lost in their absence.
I think it's dubious to say Australia were as low as 40% today, maybe 70-75%. But then again England were without certain key starters in Graham and O'Loughlin and a possible interchange hooker (who'd have better kept the balance of the side) in McIlorum so we weren't near the 100% mark either. Add in that we had 3 debuts in the forwards and Hill too only has a few caps (and all will be better for more games/experience before the semis/final) then things aren't that mis-sided.
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| May just be me, but I don't think the halves were as bad as people are making out on here. Maybe it's just one of those excuses that people love because they aren't getting their own way. I thought Sinfield and chase had good games.
Starting pack was spot on. Hill and Roby were superb and I thought Ferres was very good too.
Graham in for Mossop (who looked pretty much out of his depth against their forwards) and I think we are set.
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| Quote ="CM Punk"Widdop in for Chase, Graham & McIlorum onto the bench. S Burgess probably going to cop a ban if there's any Aussies on the disciplinary, in which case hopefully O'Loughlin is fit. Mossop and possibly Tom Burgess to drop out.'"
You don't think Burgess deserves a ban?
He should have been sent off.
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| Quote ="Charlie Sheen"George, Roby and Hill were outstanding, Westwood worked his nuts off but he's a bungalow at times. Tom Burgess and Mossop killed our momentum when they came on and Graham coming back for one of these two will definitely boost England.
The centres were generally very good especially in defence despite being billed as defensive nightmares by certain posters.
England's main problem though was their discipline and completion rate. if they improve in those areas they have a chance.'"
For the supposed strike Centre, Watkins was almost invisible in attack.
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| Burgess (G) was outstanding today, not just going forward, but his tracking back and defensive work was equally impressive - Disappointed by Burgess's S & T
Ferres deserves another start after today.
Hill did a great job - his offloads to Roby caused them a few problems
Westwood's lucky to be in the team - becoming as big a liability as Hock - he should start on the bench for the next big game
Charnley's touchline incident was disappointing. His side wasn't used much in attack
Just don't know what to do about the halves - looks like they're set in stone but would like to see Widopp given a chance...
We need another hooker on the bench to help spell Roby...
And finally, I just don't think Tomkins is or will ever be bona fide full-back - and IMO at international level he needs to be much closer to the action...
We were well in the game, but got tired towards the end of the first half. Ball started going to ground and we killed ourselves with penalties. The Aussies also had the bounce of the ball e.g. that kick that went dead by about a millimetre - if it had stayed in the field of play Slater wouldn't have made it out. Instead they get a tap and go and score at the other end... Also the ref was way out of his depth and ridiculously inconsistent in his dishing out of lying on penalties...
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| I just don't think the halves are that big an issue.
We scored 4 tries, aus scored 5.
I think they took us round the park pretty well, kicked decently and we attacked with decent structure when we could.
The problem was in our supposed legendary pack. They ran out of ticker after just 20 minutes. Specifically Westwood and surgess were abit of a problem. Hill, ferres and gurgess were the backbone of the pack. There was yards, offloads, and workrate in defence without the stupid penalties and mistakes.
But westwood and to a lesser extent surgess kept giving penalties away.
Ablett, mossop and turgess all added little and you can't afford that from an internchange bench at this level. Our main source of go forward was from gurgess.
The sooner o loughlin and graham are back, the better.
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| Quote ="Buggo"You don't think Burgess deserves a ban?
He should have been sent off.'"
He'll get a game, should be more.
It's crept into his game and will end up tarnishing his good reputation, If it hasn't already.
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| I watch melbourne every week and knew that slater would put on that scrum play. Why oh why did we have a knackered burgess trying to cover him? Tomkins should have known that play was coming and been shadowing billy wherever he went. That was a killer blow for us, that and the drooped ball on their line when we were right back in it at 22-16.
Can't blame the coach, he didn't drop the ball or give away stupid penalties, that is what cost us the game.
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| Quote ="Sheldon"He'll get a game, should be more.
It's crept into his game and will end up tarnishing his good reputation, If it hasn't already.'"
I think it has always been there.
He has a cheap shot streak in him and I think he is already noted for it.
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| The scores in the Mail are pretty much in line with how I would have put it, although I would have took an extra point off Charnley.
Westwood is a difficult choice, he does a lot of hard work, but he needs a V chip to stop him giving penalties away.
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| Quote ="JB Down Under"I watch melbourne every week and knew that slater would put on that scrum play. Why oh why did we have a knackered burgess trying to cover him? Tomkins should have known that play was coming and been shadowing billy wherever he went. That was a killer blow for us, that and the drooped ball on their line when we were right back in it at 22-16.
Can't blame the coach, he didn't drop the ball or give away stupid penalties, that is what cost us the game.'"
I agree that try just before HT & when they got the 2 points for a cheap penalty. thats the difference if SM can just cut them out and get them to value the balll for the full sets we wont be far off. I still think the aussies were not at there best. either we spoilt there plays or there a little rusty. hope its the first 1. I still think in recent games they have been in awe of who there playing go 2 or 3 tries down and cant turn it around hopefully this is no longer in there minds.. imo.
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| Westwood justs needs to play smart, if you look at his overall game, he runs his blood to water, probably part of his problem for getting penalised as much as he does is that he's involved in so many tackles.
If you drop him, you'll notice he's missing and not in a good way.
He will keep his place.
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| Quote ="Albion"May just be me, but I don't think the halves were as bad as people are making out on here. Maybe it's just one of those excuses that people love because they aren't getting their own way. I thought Sinfield and chase had good games.
Starting pack was spot on. Hill and Roby were superb and I thought Ferres was very good too.
Graham in for Mossop (who looked pretty much out of his depth against their forwards) and I think we are set.'"
+1
My thoughts exactly.
We learned from yesterday that Hill looks very comfortable at international level, that the supposed defensive frailties of our centres don't exist (now we need to get them some decent ball in attack), and that Mossop and Ablett looked just a bit lost at this level.
But as was said before, we have key players coming back for later in the tournament, so I am optimistic overall. I don't buy this 'Australia were at 40% and we were at 100%' at all, both sides will improve as the tournament progresses, England especially as they get Graham and SOL back.
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| I really do hate threads on England Australia games. Here are the possible outcomes from yesterday and the inevitable reaction from the usual suspects on these pages
1. Big Australia win… reaction would have been England are useless and international RL is dead in the water
2. Close game and win by Australia… reaction is “Australia were playing at 40%” and they “could have scored at will” if necessary
3. Close game and win by England… reaction would have been Australia have thrown the game in the interest of the tournament
So frustrating and so predictable. What actually happened was a tough and hard fought game of test match Rugby League where any other interpretation is an insult to the players (from both sides)
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| Quote ="Sheldon"He'll get a game, should be more.
It's crept into his game and will end up tarnishing his good reputation, If it hasn't already.'"
I think he has a bit of a reutation in Oz. As during the replays of 2012 final the commentator says about Billy Slater going into the try scorer before the Graham biting incident "he hasn't gone in Burgessesque" or words to that effect.
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| For me I would play Widdop in the next two matches with Sinfield first and then possibly Chase (if it doesn't look like it worked particular well with Sinfield in the first match). It is unfair to judge him on 20 minutes here and there especially behind a knackered pack.
Definitely Mossop should be replaced by Graham, he has been atrocious for Wigan for the last 18 months or so and he has brought his form to the international set up. Westwood, although a penalty machine he does a lot of hard work and as some have said you'll notice him when he's no there. It made me chuckle when he sort of started the pushing match then ran off.
Sam will cop a one match ban possibly two, no great deal as long as SOL is back. Put Mcillorum on bench to replace Roby. But at least there are positives to take from this match.
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| I agree Roby needs a back up Hooker. He can do 80 minutes but he becomes less effective over those 80. Still better than most, but not as good as his own high standards and despite being a bit of a nutter at times. MM has earned the right.
If he was in the drinking party then he had to miss yesterday, but we should not be carry a spare halfback and should not be switching the halfs part way through a game.
If there is an injury to a halfback, then Tomkins can step forward and a winger (probably charnley) cover FB.
Yesterday's line up was weakend by the drinking party and this hurt us as the line up whilst fine for Ireland and Fiji are not good enough for Oz.
Discipline hurt us both off and on the field.
You put SOL in that team, then Westwood is not having to run around like freak and then not give away as many penalties.
I also think when the head injury happened to Westwood, we should have brought Roby back to hooker, Pushed Sinfield to Loose and Sam Burgess into the 2nd row. It would have provided a better balanced side, but that's by the by.
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