Fair enough, but does that really equate to statements such as Wigan are lightyears ahead of everyone else in regards to youth development?

I didn't say it did.

But we are certainly ahead in the youth development, to say 'Lightyears' may be a tad over-enthusiastic. But we are currently, at least, head and shoulders above the rest of the competition. And probably lightyears ahead of everyone, bar the top 2 or 3 teams. Saints, Leeds & Wire.

Because you beat Widnes by a point in a mid-season game?

That certainly shows how you are head and shoulders above a team which won last seasons GF with 10 of its 17 developed by the club, and the club which has seen 19 different players they have developed win a grand final (of the 6 they have won) for them in the past decade.

Bias?

If you like GF stats, here's one for you: How about the Wigan Academy team winning 4 of the last 5 Academy Grand Finals? Does that not prove, over the last 5 years, Wigan have had the best youth setup in the UK. Or are we only taking into account first grade?

Just to be pedantic, The academy GF wins would be impressive if those players then played regular SL and won silverware. If those players don't translate that success to full-time professional RL then they aren't worth a thing. FWIW I wish HKR could produce half of what Leeds and Wigan do.

Well if we are ignoring actually bringing through young players to be successful in SL, what criteria are you using?


No, not at all. Leeds youth development structure isn’t set up to win youth trophies. Its set up to win Super League titles. That’s why 19 different players have come through the Leeds youth development system and gone on to win Super League (that’s just the ones to appear in GF by the way, not just to have played in regular season games) this decade.

Im perfectly happy for Wigan to be the best club at winning youth trophies and Leeds to be the one winning the first grade ones.

.

What I am saying, is that at this moment in time, Wigan have the best youth setup in Superleague. We have the best young players, the best facilities, and the best coaches. These are simple facts. I'm sorry if this flies in the face of all things Leeds, but it's true. Leeds have nowhere near the amount of Talent in their u19s that Wigan do. As evident by the England academy side including no less than 8 Wiganers in the victory against France the other week.

Whether these players go on to win SL titles remains to be seen, but if they don't, I wouldn't consider them failures.

Winning youth trophies isn’t having the most successful youth set up. Its just winning youth trophies, If your youth set up is geared towards winning youth trophies you’re an idiot. The whole point of having a youth set up is to bring through players to your first team, the whole point of having a first team is to win trophies. If you are winning trophies with players you have developed then your youth development is successful. Leeds have done this 19 times. Wigan 7.

You may state that Leeds don’t have anywhere near the talent at U19 level Wigan do, but I wouldn’t swap any of Wigan’s U19’s for Stevie Ward (Grand Final winner last year, still only 19) and you would have to wonder how, if Leeds have no-where near the talent Wigan do in their U19’s that the score was 40-26 to Leeds when the academies played each other.

Youth development is very important, but who would complain if their team didn't develop anyone and then just bought all the best 20 somethings to play in their team.
Developing youth is all about the sustainability of your club, but money does the same thing.
It's the success at top level that ultimately counts. It's nicer when they are local boys but not vital.

at academy level.

There are more players in SL from the WN postecode than any other.
If in doubt ask the RFL and they will confirm it.

And they still can't win owt!

Then my friend I truly do feel sorry for you. If you sit at home hoping for someone to bite, then get excited by someone answering your question and still praising what Leeds did then I am not the one with the problems here.

No, quite obviously not. Not necessarily no. If your objective is to win youth trophies and you set yourself up to do so, the bringing through youngsters in to the first team becomes a secondary consideration. Players development can be harmed by this. Similarly you may lose every game at youth level but every year pick a Cam Smith and Greg Inglis out of that team and progress them in to the first team. That would be pretty successful youth development with 0 success at youth level.

i havent dismissed anything.

Even if we did value all trophies the same, perhaps you could explain why 3 trophies in 3 years for wigan is better than 3 trophies in 3 years for Leeds?

Meh, That might be nice for Ryan Hampshire that you value him so highly. Im sure Stevie Ward likes looking at the videos of his first team games and his Grand Final winning ring more.


PS: You have still to explain how Wigan’s 19’s can be head and shoulders above everyone else, but second in the league to Leeds and having already lost to Leeds?

Where does all this "Leeds are about winning trophies" come from?
Yes, they've won the GF 6 times since the start of SL in 1996.
They have topped the League only twice in that time
Also only won the C Cup twice since SL started, yet haven't won it since 1999.
Leeds have lost their last six visits to Wembley and the last three on the run.
Leeds have been trophy winners on 10 occasions since the start of SL.
Wigan have won 9 when it is well known it has been a long barren spell for Wigan since the start of SL. Saints have won 18 trophies in that time, topping the League 6 times, the Prem/GF 5 times and the C Cup 7 times.
Leeds have recently been good at winning one trophy but quite hopeless at winning the others.

You forgot the 3 WCC wins.

Off the top of my head and I'm sure I've missed a few

WAKEFIELD
Chris Annakin
Lucas Walshaw
Danny Cowling
Matt Wildie
Kyle Trout
Kyle Wood
Ben Westwood
Jay Pitts
Wayne McDonald
Paul March
David March
Francis Stephenson
George Griffin
Darryl Griffin
Ben Gledhill
Adam Gledhill
Gareth Ellis
Keith Mason
Chris Feather
Steve Snitch
Danny Brough
Dale Morton
Nigel Wright

If we are pretending all trophies are the same, don’t forget to include our Lazenby cup and Heat-shot festive challenge victories.

For arguments sake, Wigan have produced one of the most decorated players of the superleague era -
4 SL winners medals, 5 CC winners medals, 2 WCC winners medals, 1 MOS award and 3 Lance Todd trophies.

And im sure you are very grateful

In the past that was our trouble, producing players of the highest quality and then shipping them out to other clubs.
That has been largely stopped now but seeing him in recent form I can't see Joe Mellor not going to a top four club.
Still though, the Wigan production line is producing some of the best quality RL players there are.

Mellor has taken time to adjust to losing a chunk of his electrifying pace to a bad knee injury but seems to be getting there at the minute.

At one time the lad looked as exciting as Sam Tomkins in the reserves comp so its great to see him making strides.

Players like long and harris turned into much better half backs once the lost their pace and you can see players like Myler and Mcguire develop the skills through their careers. Its just a pity we can't seem to produce them with everything from the off. Eastmond was perhaps the nearest I've seen, but he buggered off to the union.

Talent wise Eastmond could have been anything but he just wasn't tough enough. Give him Rob Burrow's attitude and he could have been immense.

When the old 'who's better, Tomkins or Eastmond' debate used to go around I always plumped for Sam based solely on his attitude, guts and sheer will to win.

Where did I say our 19s are head and shoulders above everyone else? I clearly said our Youth production is head and shoulders above everyone else. From scholarship upwards. Please don't try and put words into my mouth.

Where did I say our 3 trophies is better than Leeds' 3 trophies? I was simply pointing out that over the last 3 years, Wigan have been as successful as Leeds, when it comes to winning trophies.

Ryan Hampshire is younger than Ward, and has yet to get an extended run in the first team, I will make a bold prediction here, Hampshire will win more in his career than Ward will. And will also play more for the National side than Ward will. Should injuries not play a major part in his career. My opinion obviously, but I base that from reports of people much more knowledgeable than myself within the game who have labelled Ryan as 'Exceptional'.

Once again, You keep making assumptions about my posts. I haven't said at any point that Wigan produce teams to win youth trophies. You were the one fixated on trophies, so I brought up a stat showing that the Wigan Academy team has been the most succesful over the last 5 years, thus providing success for the first team. It's no coincidence that since we started dominating the Academy grade we have turned the corner in the first team.

And developing 2 first grade players would be a succesful youth setup? Maybe for Wakefield or Castleford. But not at a top level club. The backbone of any successful club is a group of homegrown talent.