1. London were fine at Charlton....but I would have started in a smaller ground...Brentford was fine.
2. Branson didn't want to "invest" or "market"........he didn't understand WHAT he had bought. The London Public, including myself, had no idea London RL existed........there was zero marketing......as for the Monarchs......the club was badly managed but that said, they started as London RL should have......there are 1,000,000 ex-pat northerners inside the M25......it's not because of the fans coming down to London that games at the stoop v Wigan and Saints are the biggest draws........a good number of away fans get the bus/tube home after the game....that's the audience for London RL.
3. DH dislikes/distrusts marketing.....IL left before he had a chance to make a difference and thr storm managed to break the cap because the part owners of the NRL owned them....not because of fan numbers. Their fanbase went UP last year....marketing dream.
As for TV........where do you reckon pro/semi-pro RL would be in the UK without Uncle Rupert?
4. Free ticket offers? Yeah....like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.....should have been done and done BIG in 1996........
5. I didn't say it was right or a good business model...I just said they weren't a loss making club (at the moment and at the whim of DH)....YOU SAID THEY WERE....YOU ARE WRONG.

I could debate this all night, but what's the point. In short, if London RL does fail, it will be through lack of trying IMO.

If London were fine at Charlton, how did Branson get it wrong? You really think Branson didn't know what he had bought? When he walked out at Wembley he was blissfully unaware of everything he was involved with? These 1m ex oats are clearly not RL fans and have no real interest. In that respect they are no different to anyone else in London.
If all the influential wealthy businessmen are clueless about how to make it work, just who is right to make it happen?
How am I wrong about Quins RL operating at a huge deficit? What accounting practices should be applied to back up your assertion I am wrong? If I am wrong, why are you complaining things haven't been done right?

Where should an SL club play in London, how much should they be given, what marleting strategy should be employed, who should own them?

It's time to understand that as far as top level sport in this country is concerned, the landscape is not going to change, no matter how much money is thrown at it. The NFL couldn't crack London or Europe, but you think RL can despite all the historical evidence to the contrary?

The NFL didn't understand the market....they threw cash at it....based a lot of their marketing on C4's TV coverage and the visit of a propper team once a year.......but it soon became obvious that Kids wouldn't sit still for 4 hrs.........especially to watch a game they had never played.
London is a big place.....what is needed is a community team...a brentford Griffins.....a charlton Charriots......which stick to where it is and what it wants.

By the way....Branson is a clever guy.....but for every Virgin Records he has had a fair few failures. I repeat.......he had NO IDEA WHAT HE HAD BOUGHT. Unlike his record shops or planes, where a "customer might pop in once a year" he had no idea of regular, repeat customers......he thought Wembley would mean that 20k would roll up to every game the following year.....which Ii believe was the clubs worst year for attendances (might be beaten this year).
Influental businessmen????Yeah, right, Branson was after a quick buck....DH hates marketing and IL buggered off to Wigan.
Give London thr backing the storm have had and they's have won SL by now..twice.

So the NFL didn't understand the market, the RFL, Branson,Hughes and Lenaghan don't understand the market, but you do? So the efforts of Caro Wild and Phil Jones et al in community development clearly has not really done much to draw spectators to the sport. Have all these really been so profligate with cash?

Sorry but you are talking complete gobbledegook. Retail is all about customer loyalty and repeat business in a competitive market place. What quick buck was Branson after? How do you know DH hates marketing.It costs him an awful lot to hold such a viewpoint!! IL left Quins why?

Broncos had SL money and one of the countries wealthiest men behind them. It didn't work, despite Wembley and finishing second. Quins RL had SL money RFL backing, Quins RU backing and Hughes and Lenaghan behind it. It hasn't worked.

Streatham & Mitcham didn't work. Acton didn't work. Face facts it will never work no matter how much you say the wrong people were/are in charge. It's a great shame, but that's the harsh reality. The queue of investors who can see the potential you can is evidence that your views don't have much support.

This is not backing - it was their share of the super league monies; a right as one of the members of the competition, not a benevolent gift. Just the same as every other club in the competition. Like every other club in the competition this has gone towards paying salaries and running costs. However, unlike every other club (until Cru arrived) they have also been expected to develop and market the game in areas with little contact with or knowledge of the sport. What gains have been made have benefited rugby league with precious little input from the rest of the game.

What backing?

Clearly the game should be basing its expansion policy on what did or didn't work in 1937



The present club has now not been working for 31 years. Additionally Skolars have not been working for 16 years, 8 in the semi-pro ranks.

Good post.

RL in London has been tried.

Time to give up on it.

Good to see Quins thriving on the field now they've got rid of the "second worst coach in Super League", isn't it Bazza?

Harty what constitutes success or equally what hasnt worked- Crowds I assume in your acid test?

What will you moan about if Quins/London RL is ditched from SL? Seriously, I guess you should start making a list. It still baffles me why you have such a strong attitude to SL in London...why? What would it gain you to see London RL dropped?

In the 8 years that Skolars have been going in the semi pro ranks they have done a lot more off field actitves than a lot of RL clubs.

They also have a nice little set up going in North London. Yes the playing side hasnt set the league on fire but they put the effort in.

Ummm, what has news limited owning the storm got to do with their cheating, if as you say it's because news turned a blind eye to it, why weren't they cheating before wally waldron from St Kilda AFL club got there?

And on the previous page, you said the storm came about because of TV money the NRL wanted but the NSW teams were against this expansion.

Well wasn't it the then NSWRL who invited the non NSW teams into their comp in the first place in 1981 with Canberra and 1988 with the Brisbane Broncos and Gold Coast/Tweed Seagulls?

And wasn't it the NSW mob in the then ARL who managed to get a Kiwi, SE QLD, Nth QLD and Perth side into the comp in 1995?

Also, didn't the then ARL have on their plans a Melbourne team of their own to come in around 98/99 called the Melbourne Monarchs? And isn't the only reason the Storm are in the comp now because Murdoch took over the League, killed off a dozen clubs and done what he liked?

Now I agree with you about London, they need to be helped in anyway the RFL can give them, but you are waaaay off the mark in regards to Australia and Rugby League, waaaay waaay waaay off the mark.

Just one last thing about the Storm, you said it was good for them that they got busted cheating last year as their (a marketers dream) crowds went up.

Well no, after they got busted, their crowds dropped to 10k, the reason they ended up with a 14k average is because their first 3 games before they were caught, they had over 22k for their first game, a 14k on a Monday night against Manly (pretty good actually) and then 25/6k against the Warriors.

They were averaging over 22k before the shiit hit the fan.

After that, the crowds fell right away until the end of the year where the storm sold $1 tixs against the Broncos and 20k turned up.

This year, the Storm are near the top of the table playing really well and the crowds have gone backwards, it was not a marketers dream, it was and is a nightmare for the clubs and its fans.

It is criminal if Wakey lose their license before Quins

Nice to see PHIPPS coming at the debate from multiple angles

Why? Wakey wont have a stadium in their town any more, and don't have half the juniors that Quins have coming through. They've gone bust as many times as Quins and their crowds have been terrible for years despite being within a few miles of many other SL clubs. Wakey are the weakest club in SL AND dont have the strategic importance of Quins. If ANY club lose their licence before Wakey it would be criminal.

Won't they?



Nay, they are considerably stronger and more stable than both Quins and Crusaders and at least equal to, but probably stronger, and certainly more potential for growth than Cas.

Castleford are twice the club Wakey are. They may be a smaller town but Ive lived in the area and they draw fans from miles around and their town is nuts about the club.

That would be a waste of time and only bad for rugby league

Surely in the capital they can sustain a decent crowd

To be fair we do have Manchester United on our door step and it was a friday night , Sunday attendance's are increased more on Sundays, the people are there but there just not willing to pay £20

Yes.....I do. I was once described by the RFL as 'just the type of person to promote RL and the Club in London'......shame that there wasn't the money available eh......



Simply put, NFL thought they could create a league that would (a) give them a chance to get some young talent playing regularly and developed for the real deal....and (b) maybe turn a quick buck in the process........the London Monarchs has early success and good crowds, but laziness and bad management led to them dropping out and mostof the league moving to Germany IIRC.........
IL would have made amassive difference in London....it was just unfortunate that Whelan had had enough and Wigan came on the market. IL was the one who put the RFL on to me BTW......
Branson is not GOD by the way...he messes up more than he is successful......and I repeat, he had no idea what RL was....he just saw another potential opportunity that when it became clear was a "long game" left the club shafted.

David Hughes is an astute businessman in his field and a MASSIVE RL fan, but he has very little sales, marketing and development of brand and experience.

All of the people you have mentioned, between them, have overseen the club at some stage and have contributed SFA to marketing and promotion. Until last year, when the club had a marketing bod, that position had been empty since late 2004......and IMHO the club needs to employ a specialist on over 200k a year to drive this part of the business......not a marketing assistant on 28k a year .....






YES.......I agree that it is important to get the community involved, the Kids playing the game etc......but bums on seats are what pay players wages....well, good players wages. I would have spent at least some money on marketing...as it was, I believe our marketing manager arounf the 200-2004 period and the one we had for 18 months last year both stole a living...one is now a TV announcer on early morning/nightime PTV in australia and the other scarpered first chance she got even though she went on the record, in the RL press, 5 months earlier saying she was there for the long run.

DH seems unable to appoint anyone who wants to hang around.......


Really? I pride myself on being pretty up to date with the failings of the London RL Franchise......it helps when defending the club from off the cuff statements of inaccuracy.


Well spotted........alas, sports marketing and retail marketing are different diciplines.

So it was his long and rich heritage and history in RL that made him invest was it? He didn't see the opportunity to "get in" at ground level on something SKY TV hoped would become a national sport as against a local past time....4 years and the 2 most successful seasons in the clubs history were not backed up with the level of investment in Marketing that was required to push on and forge a propper fan base... I pitched them before I was a fan....they had a players wife acting as a marketing assistant......slap dash is an understatement.

Beacause I asked him......he didn't say hate, but he felt "player development" was a better place to spend money.

Tell me, how do you think that's working out?




As the Yanks would say, it's his dime.

To buy his own home club.....and he can't be blamed. I believe this was the missed opportunity....SKY TV and/or the RFL should have purchased his shares then, instead of letting DH pick up the tab.....look at the damage those 3 years did to the club.


Correct.....because the bearded wonder though that fans would flock into watch his team.......he didn't understand what he had bought. BTW......a pound in the Capital back then was worth nearly 2 in the north....

and your point is.....?
Prove it.......seriously.......you aren't another X-FILES nut are you?


Nope...we were called partners but had 1 season to prove ourselves...thereafter the rent clause kicked in....and it goes up every year.

...see reference to attitude to marketing

...briefly, until the RFL shafted us. What harm would it have done to let him keep his interest in the club and keep bankrolling his share? He would have spent cash on marketing, I can 100% assure you of that.


Depends on what worked you are looking at...but yes, as a business, it is reliant on the wrong source of income.

...so what?


Not saying the wrong people are in charge or were in charge. What I am saying is that at no stage has marketing been attempted correctly and giving away tickets via the Standard is not marketing...it's desperation. Marketing is giving a team of marketers a budget at the end of a season and asking them to put together a plan over 12 months that will attract new fans and encourage returnees....the recent Standard give away was messed up........they didn't cary out a survey of those who took up the offer for nearly 2 weeks.....this is a perfect example of what has gone on at the club for 16 years =...they don't have a f**king clue.


...no, it's opinion.


No....what investor is going to look at the books, see DH has been throwing 1.5 million into a black whole for 3 year or longer with fan numbers dropping off and say, YEAH, i WANT SOME OF THAT? The only hope for a New Investor is if another IL can be found.....or if my numbers come up on a Saturday.

It isn't rocket science.....it is simple business. If you don't market something, it won't sell...and for 16 years + the London RL Franchise has systematically failed to market itself.
20,000 kids is all well and good......amateur clubs all over the place is brilliant........but sub 2,000 fans isn't just down to the team being crap......the opening game of the season attracted 1,766.....and the club were top of the league FFS.

In my humble opinion, the club should have launched a massive marketing campaign in the Twickenham Area in 2006. We were no longer London........so the local borough should have been "mined"......(don't believe it is a massive Union area...it isn't.). Every resident in the borough should have been invited to a game FOC during the season and every business (of a decent size) given a free box (not food and beer) for a game......it was an OK first season.....just missed the play-offs and had a 4,200 average......with most of those being existing London RL fans from Brentford or before.....the idea of tarhgetting Union fans was a massive mistake IMO.

The club has failed as a viable business, but has been a massive success in other areas......it is just a shame that this has happened the wrong way around.
IMO of course

hudds don't get that many to be fair , and if they was in the same position as us not as many would turn up

Beg to differ.....yes, they are currently on an average of 13,174, which is down on last year, but it is a lot higher than any season since 2000.......and there is definitely a touch of the "Millwall" about the Storm fans I know...they all feel like they were made an example of unfairly. Personally, I believe if they ever want to get 15k averages there they need to cultivate that.
Currently:
Attendance across the NRL is down 5%....Melbourne down by 10% against 2010...but whilst the NRL is also down 1% against 2009, Manly are up 10%....which would suggest that 2010 was a GOOD YEAR FOR CROWDS in Melbourne.

some on here think it's criminal you still have posting rights