Not at all.

If you have the balance sheet you can work out the OCF quite easily from the movements in working capital and the annual EBITDA. So long as you have the opening and closing balances for debtors, creditors and stock then you can work out what the cashflow was from normal operating activities though in some cases you'd have to have an educated guess at EBITDA due to lack of a detailed P&L.

You could exclude Hudds and Saints because it makes about as much sense as excluding Quins.



I asked for a better reason to exclude Quins than "in your opinion" you invented a couple including "Look at the chart. Look at the banding of 10 clubs within the two lines showing £1m and -£1m, also +/- £1m around the median." Which proves absolutely nothing. "Look at the chart" FFS!



Then you stumbled upon Grubbs and decided it solved your problem, you don't know what it's for or how to use it correctly do you? Oh hang on I forgot!









Are you seriously suggesting that Quins are not a part of the data set SL clubs? Are you saying that they do not fall within +- 3 standard deviations of the Mean? Exactly where we would expect the vast majority of clubs results to fall?

If you are, I hope your boss doesn't know your user name on here.







On average every club was losing £500K that is what an average tells us, the average result for the whole data set. There is likely no single result that exactly matches the average, some will be higher and some lower. Some may even be a lot lower but that does not mean they should not be included regardless of whose opinion it is.



On a like for like basis (i.e. not excluding any given club for spurious and statistically false reasons) if the average is less of a loss this year compared to last, then of course (bearing in mind the many ways financial results can be massaged) that is good news.

What we can't do is compare an average using a spurious and statistically incompetent method this year against an average calculated in a different way for last year.

Quite easy with a full set of accounts. Much harder with abbreviated accounts, especially where you have non-recurring transactions or financing activities that are not disclosed.

Can I suggest that BB and Mrs B retire to PM? I'm an accountant myself, yet with this war of attrition I lost the will to live about two pages back...

I'm doing A-level maths (which includes a module on statistics), but reading the last few pages of this thread is making me want to tear my fingernails out.

Fair enough.


Whilst it is good news that fewer clubs are making losses and the average loss (whichever way you calculate it

) appears to be reducing, you do have to wonder whether it's coincidence that this has happened when these are the last accounts to be filed before the next set of franchises are decided.

Which is why I was talking about OCF and not Net Cashflow as you wouldn't know the financing activities or capital expenditure. In my experience OCF is a pretty good indicator of a business' normal everyday performance.

All I'm getting from this is that you can make figures show whatever you want - which as a retired Royal Mail statisticain I knew already!

Quite easily. The owner could put in a few million as share capital. No debt but losses are covered.

No.

Normally 2 amd 3 follow from 1.

Ssssh - keeps some of us in a job.

Whatever our differences, we are both cynics.

i'm a plasterer i dont care!!!!

Does anyone think that chris joint should have been penalised for a voluntary tackle at the grand final.

No, because he never played in a Grand Final.

Im sorry Dally but Mrs An-Count B has bored me into a stupier so i thought i'd talk about rugby league.

its all the drivel we get used to

Quote ="Mrs Barista"Seems like 2009 was a marginally better year financially for some clubs. In 2008, the only club (I think) to make a profit was Hull FC. The league table of profit/loss for 2009 is as follows (assuming I've got the right entities) and shows 4 clubs in profit and a further 3 with a loss < £100k (although I'm being a bit generous with Wigan and using their pre impairment/depreciation/interest number). Leeds profit is before a hefty exceptional income of £3m from a transaction with Yorkshire CC. The average loss excluding Harlequins, which IMO distorts the underlying picture, is -£103,630. Leeds 720,871 Warrington 159,514 Hull FC 77,141 Castleford 26,679 Salford -19,651 Wigan -40,715 Bradford -72,209 Wakefield -202,379 Huddersfield -823,739 St Helens -861,810 Harlequins -1,936,804 Average excluding Harlequins -103,630 This excludes clubs whose accounts are overdue, ie Hull KR and Crusaders.'" www.thisishullandeastriding.co.u ... ticle.html

Quote ="Mrs Barista"Seems like 2009 was a marginally better year financially for some clubs. In 2008, the only club (I think) to make a profit was Hull FC. The league table of profit/loss for 2009 is as follows (assuming I've got the right entities) and shows 4 clubs in profit and a further 3 with a loss < £100k (although I'm being a bit generous with Wigan and using their pre impairment/depreciation/interest number). Leeds profit is before a hefty exceptional income of £3m from a transaction with Yorkshire CC. The average loss excluding Harlequins, which IMO distorts the underlying picture, is -£103,630. Leeds 720,871 Warrington 159,514 Hull FC 77,141 Castleford 26,679 Salford -19,651 Wigan -40,715 Bradford -72,209 Wakefield -202,379 Huddersfield -823,739 St Helens -861,810 Harlequins -1,936,804 Average excluding Harlequins -103,630 This excludes clubs whose accounts are overdue, ie Hull KR and Crusaders.'" www.thisishullandeastriding.co.u ... ticle.html

Chris Joynt never played in a Grand Final?

Ask tb (if you want to be banned

).

I presumed Luke was referring to the JVT thread of legend.

What's Dally on about tb?

I have no idea. But then, I seldom do with him.


(apart from being a sub-tb pedant and pointing out that 'chris joint' has never played in a grand final because there's no such player)