Wakefield , Quins , Cas , Salford , Celtic , none of these are any better than Widnes now or even potentially Fax , Fev , Barrow , Haven or Leigh with 3 years of SL behind them

Yes but thats not the point. Putting Castleford and Wakey and Quins in the league below will move them backwards. We need to stick with them. These 3 teams along with Hudds need to be dragged up to the right standard by continuing developing in super league. Widnes IMO are now ready to step up once they have been in super league for a few years.

minority sport in over saturated areas, we're screwed really lets admit it

I am a Wigan fan but any fan would put Wigan down as one of the biggest clubs in rugby league. You wouldn't of made that comment if I was a Leeds fan or Hull FC fan though would you?

Cas average more than them all and a LOT more than some of those could get, Salford and Celtic I agree, but Celtics inclusion is obvious..for now. Quins have a top stadium, just lack the fanbase but crowds arent everything. How Quins arent a SL standard club I dont know. Wakefield are running it close but their youth development is pretty good and the playing squad is this year good, stadium for Cas and Wakey is definately an issue but this year they've performed well enough to a SL standard and with plenty of British players

This propsal is nothing to do with barrow.

Town and haven have a combined total of 2,500 - 3,000 regular fans.
A year ago I asked the fans of town and haven on their websites about this and half said they'd support a new team playing in superleague, as well as continuing with their current one. That's pretty amazing given the rivalry, etc.


More imprtantly, the two boroughs have a combined population of 170,000.
We all know how popular RL is in the area, it's the 167,000 people who live there but don't follow either of the two clubs (for a variety of reasons) that would make up the support for the new club. Those are the people who's opinion really matters.

RL needs a very rich benefactor (other than sky) to market the hell out of it.

Exciting game not being sold to the masses

Yes I am fully aware what being in a lower league does to your club , especially when you cannot climb out of it

Are they developing ? , are their crowds growing ? , are they able to stand outside a new or partly built stadium ? , could they stand a drop in the SKY revenue ?

Very true!

What professional sports club in the modern world couldnt?
I mean..if we want to highlight the point...lets look at Leigh!
Wakey have had a disappointing year for crowds after a good 2008, Cas have done alright following a year of finishing bottom.
We need to see where it's at in a couple of years but as of right now, neither are going anywhere

Stadiums are the key! People do't seem to understand this. Just look at Warrington, Hull FC...

Ok , lets look at Leigh , small crowds , poor playing squad , unable to compete for local juniors against local SL clubs , the use of a excellent stadium but they dont own it and it is expesive to play at and makes no revenue for the club , so no Leigh are not a potential SL club at the moment and are unlikely to become one in the near future without the intervention of a billionaire , Ok with that

Now then back to the question in point , we are now using a franchise system , a system that is there to enable clubs to reach good standards at all levels , playing , player development , financial , stadia , development of the sport via expansion

At the moment everybody on here seems to agree that we dont have 14 clubs anywhere near that level and yet some are suggesting we increase the number in SL , why when we only have just over 50 % of the clubs in SL at anywhere near that level , yes some clubs are better at different things , but a true SL should have true SUPER clubs in it

Look at the Union comp they set up in the southern hemisphere , it was the Super 8.s , then the 10 , then the 12 , now the 14 , all well financed , well supported fairly competitive clubs

The NRL were forced via the courts to lets Souths back into their comp and despite good finance they struggled for a while , but they introduced the Titans certain they would strengthen the comp

A very strong SL with a stronger 2 nd tier to push them would be a better idea , but that wont happen

Course they are , look at Doncaster and Leigh

You certainly put plenty of spin on those figures, Matey.

All clubs who's game was covered by Sky had allocations of free tickets - including Barrow.

Now for the reality check.

Widnes - Championship:
Widnes v Toulouse - 5,074
Widnes v Sheffield - 3,181
Widnes v Leigh - 4,354
Widnes v Batley - 2,901
Widnes v Barrow - 3,290
Widnes v Gateshead - 5,236
Widnes v Featherstone - 3,278
Widnes v Doncaster - 3,453
Widnes v Halifax - 4,039
Widnes v Whitehaven - 3,275

Average after 10 rounds = 3,881

Widnes - Play-Offs:
Play-Off Round 1
Widnes v Whitehaven - 2,375
Play-Off Round 2
Widnes v Featherstone - 3,296

I didn't include the Play-Off games as it would just complicate matters. But I thought I'd show them to you, just in case you want to add them.


Barrow - Championship:
Barrow v Doncaster - 1,809
Barrow v Halifax - 1,918
Barrow v Whitehaven - 2,910
Barrow v Batley - 1,757
Barrow v Featherstone - 1,995
Barrow v Sheffield - 1,693
Barrow v Toulouse - 2,456
Barrow v Leigh - 1,934
Barrow v Widnes - 3,050
Barrow v Gateshead - 2,981


Average after 10 rounds = 2,250


GF Semi-Final
Barrow v Halifax - 2,823


Lowering Widnes attendance by using NRC games, while not including your own clubs figures made me laugh though. So lets look at that too, eh?

Northern Rail Cup (home games):

Widnes:
Widnes v Oldham - 2,783
Widnes v Gateshead - 3,001
Widnes v York - : 1,650

Total att: 7,434
Average att: 2,478

Barrow:
Barrow v Keighley - 1,311
Barrow v Widnes - 1,563
Barrow v Dewsbury - 1,820

Total att: 4,694
Average att:1,564

Oh dear!

A 13 game average covering home games in both the Championship and NRC, reduces Widnes' average attendance to 3,501 and Barrow's to 2,092.

Adding the NRC attendances actually increases the gap in the average attendance of both clubs in Widnes' favour by a large margin.

No spin there, just facts. You're not as near to Widnes as you would like to think you are.

SRC i think they call that getting owned.


Well done Pepe.

The Super 14s will be on its before too long, its certainly not well thought out and they're on about putting a club in Melbourne..thats a worse idea than Celtic!!
We're obviously going to disagree because I personally see SL going a completely different way which I outlined fully a few months back, two conferences with maybe some weak teams at the bottom of each but in the end, the added money with more expansion clubs and more teams will IMO be the way forward. I'd like to see expansion as fast as possible and build from there with the league underneath becoming a feeder/small town league.
It's different from a British sporting culture perspective but we've always been different

Full of clubs nobody will want to watch

There's plenty of teams no one wants to watch now.
All the prospective candidates will be in SL with my idea

Decided by who ?

I ave already said I agree with you but we cannot afford at this stage to send some clubs to the league below... the time for that was when super league began or when we started the new franchise, now we must make do with what we have got. I merley suggest a bigger competition to drag more teams up to a higher standard.

But that is what I am saying , we already dont have the money or players to properly run the 14 we have , so to add more would surely just weaken the ones already in and also reduce any possibility of providing money to help out the lower tiers , surely we want to close the gap , not widen it

You're doing the same thing. You forgot the NR Cup Semi against Fev at 2,775. We also attracted a sell-out 6,275 against Wigan in the Challenge Cup. Also, adding the Widnes v Gateshead attendance is a bit of a joke as it was free to get in !!

I never said that Barrow had a higher average by any means what I said was that our crowds were up 1,000 in 2009 (and we were the best supported team in NL2 in 2008 by about 400 average). There's no reason why we can't add another 1,000 next season as we head towards license application time.

Widnes had several years in SL and many towards the top of the 2nd tier. Your fanbase should be MILES AHEAD of a club just promoted from NL2 .... but it isn't.

OK, we are outsiders for a SL license in 2012, but I remember many Widnes fans on this forum slagging off pretty much ALL Barrow's signings in the off season prior to the season. 'You'll do well to stay up' etc etc.

Write us off, either on or off the pitch, at your peril.

I included home games where both clubs receive all gate receipts. I certainly didn't massage the figures in the way you did. You may as well include your two finals in the equation if you go down the road you suggest. But that wouldn't give us a real idea of what you get through your own gate every week. This is why I included only League and NRC league home games, which does.


It wasn't for me, or any other season ticket holder. There was a promotion on for that game, but it did attract 5,236. That was the attendance and it is fair enough to include it. Just because it doesn't sit well with you is irrelevant. Either way, it wouldn't make a great deal of difference to the over-all figures. Barrow would still be over 1,400 spectators behind.


If you had just said that, I would simply have congratulated your club rather than give the answer I did.


Good luck to you with that. Perhaps you can brag about it when it actually happens.


Yes it is. We've been out of SL for four years. I don't know why you think, because we were once in SL, it will mean we will retain all our SL fans? There are several clubs in SL now that struggle, or don't actually get as many fans as we do now. I could understand what you say, if we had just been relegated after years in the top flight, but that's definitely not the case. If you think Barrow can match our attendances next season, then good luck to them. But I think you'll find that will be harder than you think. When you get within a few hundred of us you'll have something to shout about.



Do you?

I don't remember any Widnes fans even mentioning Barrow at all at the start of the season, let alone slagging off your signings.


OK

Widnes are the best supported club out the SL by a country mi...... better hadnt say that



But even Widnes had a drop in attendance last season including the (free admission game) but still the best supported by a large margin, so doffs cap to you there.

However Barrow's crowds are flying up and I hope that continues, even if our crowds only rise by 2 or 300 I would be very happy as its steady continued growth, any more and id be delighted.

Barrow away crowd figures are lower than Widnes's due to our location being seen as difficult to travel to and being seen as a lesser attractive fixture historically , however the roads into Barrow have and are improving cutting travel times and the future bridge infrastructures could have a huge impact on this, add in the factor that we are now the defending champions and are producing a quaility side should hopefully incourage more away supporters to inflate out attendance average further.

I think the recession has hit everyone. A major factor with our drop last season was the move to Friday and Saturday evenings. We lost 400 season tickets because of that.


I'm sure, with the players you are attracting and the success you're having, you will.


I think away following counts for very little in this league anyway. Very few clubs bring 100 or more supporters, unless it's in the play-offs. Only Leigh ever bring 400 or more to Widnes. We'll miss them next season as a result. So you'll need to rely almost entirely on your own fans. I did notice that most clubs had their largest attendances when Wdnes were visitors though.



Good luck to Barrow. I don't think Barrow will be in the frame for a licence in 2012. But with a new stadium, a steadily improving fan base and an improved youth structure, Barrow would be a very attractive prospect for a place in SL in the future. You are certainly going in the right direction with that regard anyway.





There's no Halifax fan's looking, so I think you got away with it.