Quins RL is operating at huge deficits. Technically insolvent and saved by the generosity of David Hughes. Sadly RL will never take hold in London as a big spectator sport. This is a great shame but an inescapable fact, as the many aborted attempts going back as far as Streatham& Mitcham, Acton etc indicate. There may be a lot of kids playing for a fixed time every week, but this does not translate into spectator numbers.

I wish things were different as I'd love to see the game grow, but sadly they aren't. There is a nig difference between being anti expansion and a purveyor of cold hard reality.

Oh..look. Another newbie. Welcome.
Cold hard reality eh.....how much does that sell for? By the Pound or are you Metric in your trade?

Expansionism in RL is quite possible.......and as usual (it pains me to say this), the NRL have showed the way to do it. Australian RL gets less TV money than the AFL due to the AFL being played at top level in more capital cities. The Melbourne Storm were created purely to tick another state box.......and try to attract more money. As the NSW Mafia weren't too keen on what they saw as a gamble (with their money) to maybe attract more TV cash, News stepped in.......and threw shed loads of cash at the franchise.........they still get crap crowds, but they are on the up...and being caught cheating has perversely created a Millwall type metality down there..........
Now let's look at London in SL shall we......bandied around, moved from pillar to post, new owners, new promises, never delivered upon....yeah,,,,that's the RFL way.

Give a London RL Franchise 3,000,000 a year for 10 years.....ensure that 50% of this is devoted to attracting and keeping fans..........employ marketing professionals (something that has never been done)...and then if it fails, come back and post your Cold Hard Reality.

BTW.....it has never been about attendance figures in the eyes of those who bankroll the game......it is about audience spread.

London Broncos were added to SL, along with Paris St Germain because Sky wanted a 12 team competition with two new sides. Should Maurice Lindsay have ensured that London and Paris were given more Sky money for a fixed period?

Richard Branson and a Wembley appearance couldn't ignite the interest of Londoners. Why can London be compared to Melbourne? Are the sporting environments and culture broadly similar?

Who took London Broncos to Charlton, Griffin park and The Stoop? Where should they be in order for it to 'work'? What should the team be called? Is it simply a matter of marketing and they will come?

Is there any evidence that having Quins RL in SL directly affects audience spread?

I'm not on either side, it just seems that those who say it will work don't really know how to make it work, even though history shows it won't, and I include the SL era in that history.

You don't help viewpoint by saying Quins RL isn't loss making!

IMO...Yes.


Branson totally missed the point...he really thought he was buying the new London Monarchs.....

In a way, they are alike when comparing the sporting geography.....AFL rules in Melbourne./ they get 80 or 90 thousand to regular season games.....soccer, Union and League are all third rate sports when compared by attendance and interest. Soccer used to get 20k to games, but they split their fans with a second franchise......London is a soccer town.....League and Union together with basketball all pale into insignificance by comparison.

No idea of the backroom shennanigans....but


IMO, Brentford was a good location. If the money was available to buy a share of the stadium and develop it then I believe that the club could build on the crowds they had there between 2002-2005. Call them London RL again......they were never oficially the Broncos BTW.


No....but some marketing would be good






Regardless of where the money comes from, the P&L account for Harlequins RL is cash neutral........same way Halifax averaged the right number of fans last season exactly.......it may not be correct, but it is accurate.

1. London were fine at Charlton....but I would have started in a smaller ground...Brentford was fine.
2. Branson didn't want to "invest" or "market"........he didn't understand WHAT he had bought. The London Public, including myself, had no idea London RL existed........there was zero marketing......as for the Monarchs......the club was badly managed but that said, they started as London RL should have......there are 1,000,000 ex-pat northerners inside the M25......it's not because of the fans coming down to London that games at the stoop v Wigan and Saints are the biggest draws........a good number of away fans get the bus/tube home after the game....that's the audience for London RL.
3. DH dislikes/distrusts marketing.....IL left before he had a chance to make a difference and thr storm managed to break the cap because the part owners of the NRL owned them....not because of fan numbers. Their fanbase went UP last year....marketing dream.
As for TV........where do you reckon pro/semi-pro RL would be in the UK without Uncle Rupert?
4. Free ticket offers? Yeah....like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.....should have been done and done BIG in 1996........
5. I didn't say it was right or a good business model...I just said they weren't a loss making club (at the moment and at the whim of DH)....YOU SAID THEY WERE....YOU ARE WRONG.

I could debate this all night, but what's the point. In short, if London RL does fail, it will be through lack of trying IMO.

If London were fine at Charlton, how did Branson get it wrong? You really think Branson didn't know what he had bought? When he walked out at Wembley he was blissfully unaware of everything he was involved with? These 1m ex oats are clearly not RL fans and have no real interest. In that respect they are no different to anyone else in London.
If all the influential wealthy businessmen are clueless about how to make it work, just who is right to make it happen?
How am I wrong about Quins RL operating at a huge deficit? What accounting practices should be applied to back up your assertion I am wrong? If I am wrong, why are you complaining things haven't been done right?

Where should an SL club play in London, how much should they be given, what marleting strategy should be employed, who should own them?

It's time to understand that as far as top level sport in this country is concerned, the landscape is not going to change, no matter how much money is thrown at it. The NFL couldn't crack London or Europe, but you think RL can despite all the historical evidence to the contrary?

The NFL didn't understand the market....they threw cash at it....based a lot of their marketing on C4's TV coverage and the visit of a propper team once a year.......but it soon became obvious that Kids wouldn't sit still for 4 hrs.........especially to watch a game they had never played.
London is a big place.....what is needed is a community team...a brentford Griffins.....a charlton Charriots......which stick to where it is and what it wants.

By the way....Branson is a clever guy.....but for every Virgin Records he has had a fair few failures. I repeat.......he had NO IDEA WHAT HE HAD BOUGHT. Unlike his record shops or planes, where a "customer might pop in once a year" he had no idea of regular, repeat customers......he thought Wembley would mean that 20k would roll up to every game the following year.....which Ii believe was the clubs worst year for attendances (might be beaten this year).
Influental businessmen????Yeah, right, Branson was after a quick buck....DH hates marketing and IL buggered off to Wigan.
Give London thr backing the storm have had and they's have won SL by now..twice.

So the NFL didn't understand the market, the RFL, Branson,Hughes and Lenaghan don't understand the market, but you do? So the efforts of Caro Wild and Phil Jones et al in community development clearly has not really done much to draw spectators to the sport. Have all these really been so profligate with cash?

Sorry but you are talking complete gobbledegook. Retail is all about customer loyalty and repeat business in a competitive market place. What quick buck was Branson after? How do you know DH hates marketing.It costs him an awful lot to hold such a viewpoint!! IL left Quins why?

Broncos had SL money and one of the countries wealthiest men behind them. It didn't work, despite Wembley and finishing second. Quins RL had SL money RFL backing, Quins RU backing and Hughes and Lenaghan behind it. It hasn't worked.

Streatham & Mitcham didn't work. Acton didn't work. Face facts it will never work no matter how much you say the wrong people were/are in charge. It's a great shame, but that's the harsh reality. The queue of investors who can see the potential you can is evidence that your views don't have much support.

This is not backing - it was their share of the super league monies; a right as one of the members of the competition, not a benevolent gift. Just the same as every other club in the competition. Like every other club in the competition this has gone towards paying salaries and running costs. However, unlike every other club (until Cru arrived) they have also been expected to develop and market the game in areas with little contact with or knowledge of the sport. What gains have been made have benefited rugby league with precious little input from the rest of the game.

What backing?

Clearly the game should be basing its expansion policy on what did or didn't work in 1937



The present club has now not been working for 31 years. Additionally Skolars have not been working for 16 years, 8 in the semi-pro ranks.

Good post.

RL in London has been tried.

Time to give up on it.

Good to see Quins thriving on the field now they've got rid of the "second worst coach in Super League", isn't it Bazza?

Harty what constitutes success or equally what hasnt worked- Crowds I assume in your acid test?

What will you moan about if Quins/London RL is ditched from SL? Seriously, I guess you should start making a list. It still baffles me why you have such a strong attitude to SL in London...why? What would it gain you to see London RL dropped?

In the 8 years that Skolars have been going in the semi pro ranks they have done a lot more off field actitves than a lot of RL clubs.

They also have a nice little set up going in North London. Yes the playing side hasnt set the league on fire but they put the effort in.

Ummm, what has news limited owning the storm got to do with their cheating, if as you say it's because news turned a blind eye to it, why weren't they cheating before wally waldron from St Kilda AFL club got there?

And on the previous page, you said the storm came about because of TV money the NRL wanted but the NSW teams were against this expansion.

Well wasn't it the then NSWRL who invited the non NSW teams into their comp in the first place in 1981 with Canberra and 1988 with the Brisbane Broncos and Gold Coast/Tweed Seagulls?

And wasn't it the NSW mob in the then ARL who managed to get a Kiwi, SE QLD, Nth QLD and Perth side into the comp in 1995?

Also, didn't the then ARL have on their plans a Melbourne team of their own to come in around 98/99 called the Melbourne Monarchs? And isn't the only reason the Storm are in the comp now because Murdoch took over the League, killed off a dozen clubs and done what he liked?

Now I agree with you about London, they need to be helped in anyway the RFL can give them, but you are waaaay off the mark in regards to Australia and Rugby League, waaaay waaay waaay off the mark.

Just one last thing about the Storm, you said it was good for them that they got busted cheating last year as their (a marketers dream) crowds went up.

Well no, after they got busted, their crowds dropped to 10k, the reason they ended up with a 14k average is because their first 3 games before they were caught, they had over 22k for their first game, a 14k on a Monday night against Manly (pretty good actually) and then 25/6k against the Warriors.

They were averaging over 22k before the shiit hit the fan.

After that, the crowds fell right away until the end of the year where the storm sold $1 tixs against the Broncos and 20k turned up.

This year, the Storm are near the top of the table playing really well and the crowds have gone backwards, it was not a marketers dream, it was and is a nightmare for the clubs and its fans.

It is criminal if Wakey lose their license before Quins

Nice to see PHIPPS coming at the debate from multiple angles

Why? Wakey wont have a stadium in their town any more, and don't have half the juniors that Quins have coming through. They've gone bust as many times as Quins and their crowds have been terrible for years despite being within a few miles of many other SL clubs. Wakey are the weakest club in SL AND dont have the strategic importance of Quins. If ANY club lose their licence before Wakey it would be criminal.

Won't they?



Nay, they are considerably stronger and more stable than both Quins and Crusaders and at least equal to, but probably stronger, and certainly more potential for growth than Cas.

Castleford are twice the club Wakey are. They may be a smaller town but Ive lived in the area and they draw fans from miles around and their town is nuts about the club.

That would be a waste of time and only bad for rugby league

Surely in the capital they can sustain a decent crowd

To be fair we do have Manchester United on our door step and it was a friday night , Sunday attendance's are increased more on Sundays, the people are there but there just not willing to pay £20