Given that you've retracted your argument down to the single issue of Hock holding LMS, I'll defer to other posters who've said that Hock had him in a clinch and the other people in attendance weren't holding him.

Either way, Hock started the head-banging in the scrum and was the player who threw several unanswered punches; that being the catalyst for the resultant melee.

Given the faith that Wigan showed in him, aren't you a touch disappointed that he chose to repay that faith by earning himself another ban? Thuggery aside, he's in a rich vein of form - I expect Wigan will miss him whilst he's gone.

You are so blind because of your bias. Hock could pull out a shot gun and blow LMS to bits and you'd question intent.

Hock started it through mindless stupidity in the scrum. Anyone who has ever been in a scrum before knows what Hock did was out of order. He twice dipped his head and brought it up into LMS's face, for no reason at all. There had been nothing to cause it and the game had been remarkably uneventful until that point.

You will be lucky to have only 2 banned for the Leeds game. If the RFL look at that incident properly, there are probably 4 or 5 that could be banned for it. Not very smart when you'd won the game after 20 minutes.

The world has changed, and the sport is far more conscious about the public image projected by violence than it was even a few years ago. On a big occasion, a fight like that has no place, and as well as a couple of bans, a number of other players ought to be fined.

Now for my completely hypocritical view.....Hock's a nutter, but that's exactly why I'd pick him for England against Australia.

No, don't avoid the issue.

You said " Hock nutted LMS in the face", and he "landed several upper cuts whilst LMS was being held by other Wigan players", when in reality Hock didn't nut anyone and no Wigan players were holding LMS. I've asked you who was holding LMS but you can't answer.

You then said Tuson was "windmilling like a psychotic maniac" when in reality they exchanged a few swings before Tuson landed a few uppercuts and that was all he did. Magennis, meanwhile, was swinging at all and sundry, but you fail to mention that.

The 'headbanging' in the scrum was 50/50. Both players shoved each other's heads, both banged heads a few times and and Hock rolled his head under LMS. Then they stood up. At no point did Hock stick his head in, even after it kicked off.

I'm happy to hold my hands up when players are in the wrong and Hock was stupid to escalate things, but don't make up events that didn't happen. Or at least make an effort to defend yourself and prove your point when you do.

Props never bang heads and test each other at the scrum, do they?

I blame your sorry lot for sticking a southern pansy at prop. Clearly can't handle it.

Jesus your team were embarrassing today.

It's not 1980 any more. In the era of non-competitive scrums, there really is no place or benefit to banging heads in the scrum.

LMS was fine, pretty fantastic really compared to the rest of the side.

And yet still it goes on at every level of RL...anyone would think you don't know what you're talking about!

Bless.

[size=85(yes, LMS was very good today)[/size

In my unbiased opinion LMS was one of the few Saints players to play well.

Not bothered about the length of bans for Wigan players just want plenty of 'em banned for 1 week.

I enjoyed the biff and was brought up on the game in the 70s and 80s so I don't get my panties in a twist but I understand the red cards. It's a different game these days. Hock is in immense form but clearly can't control his idiot gene.

I've already answered - I said I was prepared to defer to the view that LMS wasn't being held by other Wigan players, only by Hock himself.

The rest I stand by - as a neutral, without the need to defend players from either team, that's how I saw it; Wigan were comfortably on top, Hock decided to try to get on top of LMS in the scrum by knocking heads with him, and needlessly came up swinging; a melee ensued, in which Magennis and Tuson disgraced themselves, with a sneaky dig from Mossop. I couldn't follow the rest, but I expect there'll be a mini-bus headed over the M62 to Red Hall next week.

So how about my question - are you in any way disappointed in Hock's behaviour, given the investment your club made in his rehabilitation and how important he is to the team?

Disappointed with Hock? No. You want aggression from your players; you want them to intimidate and dominate mentally and physically, you want them to push the boundaries, and occasionally that will spill over. It's part of RL and will always happen.

I'm disappointed we'll lose him for a couple of games, yes.

I think that both Hock and Magennis deserved sending off. Tuson should have had a lesser punishment than those two.

Hock and LMS were both 50/50 whilst the scrum was being formed. However, Hock escalated the entire situation by throwing several punches. This is what started the brawl and deserved a card being shown at him.
There's a video on youtube. It's poor quality but if you look in the background you can see Magennis and Tuson together. As Tuson turns away from Magennis, Magennis swings wildly at the back of Tuson's head. This should have also seen a card being shown.
I think that Tuson deserved a lesser punishment than Hock and Magennis. He wasn't the aggressor in the situation and only started punching after another player had taken a swing at the back of his head. Let's face it, if someone took a swing at you from behind would you just ignore it or would you stand up for yourself?

Hock and Magennis should both have the severest punishments out of those on the pitch but I expect that we'll see several of the players mentioned when the disciplinary committee meets.

Lets be honest, fighting certainly has a place in a derby match. In fact it's something that the derby has lacked in recent years, presumably because people want the game sanitised beyond belief. It's always been a part of the game and it always should be. It's a good, hard game played with passion and intensity and that means things spilling over from time to time. Then when the game finishes you shake hands and have a quick chat with the guy you've known for years and were swinging punches at 20 minutes ago.
A State of Origin game is never a classic without a good brawl, while a scrap certainly has a place in a Wigan-Saints derby.

The rough, aggressive and sometimes violent part of the game gets people interested. Having watched the game with several non-rugby fans who weren't paying much attention, they got into it when the players started scrapping and couldn't take their eyes off the screen from that point on. As for those who play the game, well judging the reaction on twitter they thought it was a ridiculous decision to send the three players off. They are the ones who play the game, they should know best.

Spot on.

Only seen a few replays (and not the best ones at that). Hock just can't help himself. He has no control when someone winds him up. LMS didn't deserve to be sent off for winding up Hock.

As for Tuson and McGennis, well... dirty cheap shot by McGennis when Tuson had his back turned. Tuson reacted like anyone would who has been punched on the blind side.
Didn't see the Mossop incident. Wish I did! Nothing like a bit of biff in a derby!

Normally I'd say this would just be a sin-binning incident, let them cool off and get on with it. But with Wigan just completely running away with the game, I think the ref was trying a bit of evening out the odds. Had it been a close contest and the pressure on, I think the ref would have taken the context of the game into consideration and just given them that cooling off period to keep the game interesting.

I thought there were a couple of 'tackles' after the brawl that were more worthy of a red card.

This, in my view, is what holds the game back from being of interest to the wider public and contributes to its lack of mainstream media exposure.

A gang of gimlet-eyed northerners with prison tattoos having a street brawl is NOT attractive to the average casual sports fan; it may be of interest to public school media types, but only as proof positive that they were right about RL all along.

The players involved have done the game no favours at all - don't kid yourself that they have just because one or two of them play for your team.

Agreed, there was one by McIlorum that would definitely have been a red card candidate if Wigan weren't already down by two. Pretty nasty shot by Wilkin as well.

THIS!!

Yep - it will be interesting to see what happens over those

It's a shame that the brawl has become the talking point of the match really, as without it Saints were on for a bloody good hiding.

For my twopenneth worth, if Hock has headbutted LMS then I've got no arguments with that. For Tuson and Magennis (who was a complete coward), 10 minutes each would have suffced. Mossop didn't need to get involved, and will probably get a worse ban than Tuson.

My opinion is that Hock deserved a yellow for throwing a few little punches, LMS didn't do anything to me. Magennis was a sh@thouse, hitting Tuson from behind completely separate from the initial scrap, yellow or possibly red due to his continuous punches to numerous players. Tuson reacted as expected all be it a tiny bit OTT, yellow.

Tuson - Sending off sufficient.
Hock - 1 game ban.
Magennis - 1/2 game ban.
Mossop - Warning due to exemplary record.
McLlorum - No case to answer, wasn't much in the high tackle IMO. Easily see 2 or 3 of them in a game.

Whether or not some people like 'the biff', punching is against the rules. In typical style Hock thoughtlessly lashed out at an opponent, provoking the brawl which effectively changed the course of the game. If Hock had behaved himself, or even just sneered at LMS, he may have scored another belter or two to match his first half try, and Wigan may have won by sixty points - going a long way for Pie fans as revenge for their 75-nil Saints defeat a few years ago. Don't think that the Aussies don't know this, which is why he can't play for England if we want to have 13 men on the field for more than ten minutes.

I think the whole thing was set up as far as Wigan are concerned. I would love to see the RFL disciplinary committee ask them why their front row was made up of the players it was, given that they weren't playing prop at the time they packed down and both were very keen on fighting.

Nowt wrong with a bit of biff - thought Kelvin Skerret was back when it 1st kicked off.

was good to watch but ateotd the rules state red card for vioeltn conduct so by the laws of the game they had to go.

A good point from Saddo there.

At 34-6 up in the derby with half an hour left, Wigan made a conscious decision to start a brawl and risk dismissals and suspensions.

Then again, we needed something to give us a challenge as Saints certainly weren't capable of providing it.