It may be silly to you;but is is factually correct.

I think you and fellow M62ers should be more worried about overseas coaches winning things and the M62 appointed saviour sport,Elstone,not quite managing the commercial breakthrough your mate Lenagan parachuted him in for.Unless a lower broadcast deal and free pizza was what was meant.

The M62 clubs want all the broadcast money for themselves - so they can spend less than overseas 'newbies ' and remain in the shadow of the NRL.

And with the childish name calling the conversation stops right there.....

Well, having just replied to an utterly childish post in which the author's only (and persistent) aim seemed to be to call me names, it was a pleasure to read your extremely well considered post in full. then read it again and conclude that it's a very good analysis indeed.

It leaves us looking forward to seeing how it pans out against two alternative views.

On the face of it it looks very much like promotion for the Bulls would be a poisoned chalice, however I cannot believe that their soon to be fellow club chairmen want to just use them for a season then throw them away. The main reason I say this is 2022 heralds a new SKY contract in which there will be less money and a move towards possibly a full English league (Lenegan let that slip in an interview) in which it's important that we give SKY the content viewers want to pay for and that includes a successful Bulls, and those Leeds derbies back on the calendar..

I acknowledge that you don't see how they could be successful by being promoted maybe "too early" and by not having a "rich owner" of the Davey type. It's a good analysis. I maybe don't see how they will grow into a Superleague club stuck in the championship supposedly "building" towards Superleague year after year.

My bottom line would be that as the 12th. place has allegedly been designed to hoist Bradford Bulls up because Superleague want them, then they must want them long term, not for a one year influx of thousands of travelling Bulls fans before the club finally fails on the field and returns to Championship oblivion.?

Super league should just simply ask one question. What would the Nrl do?

Answer would be Toulouse.

You don't like it when you get exposed, face it.

Thank you. Much appreciated. Always good to have debate on here.



I think so anyway, everyone else obviously will have their own opinion. I can see them using the Bulls as a cash cow because the SL will panic if the SKY deal is actually lower than we all think as it will start to affect SL's funding. The article below talks about the current deal £40million being slashed to potentially £30 million or £28million. Now if it's £30million that's okay as the SL portion will not be affected or affected only minimally, lower league will get nothing. However if the new deal is only worth £28million, that starts to affect SL's portion too. Parachuting Bulls in short term gives them a bit more negotiating power as they'll have the Leeds derby, other rival games etc. They negotiate another 5 year deal at £30 million then they are set really. They've always had short term self interest aims. Never long term. Look at all the changes in structures over the past 10 years? There's been about 3 changes. Ah I haven't seen the Lenegan interview but if that's true, it's excluding Catalans and they have still get decent crowds and a better production line than most SL clubs.

EDIT [i(forgot to include article):[/i [urlhttps://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/rugby-league-tv-deal-sky-sports-rights-champions-league-one-rfl-741881[/url



We won't be 'building' year after year. A lot of people forget we were liquidated and then relegated to League 1. 2019 was our first season back in the Championship and obviously 2020 was a write off, so we've only been a Championship club for a year and 4 games. After the 2019 season we had to sell/get rid of half the squad due to financial issues. The early signs were good last season, but that could have changed over the course of a season. So in theory we are only 1 year (4 games) into a rebuild. Can't be done overnight. But it will take two or three years before we can compete for the SL spot.



100% agree with this. The criteria has been basically written in with the Bulls in mind which is completely wrong. It should be a fair process. I really hope they want us in long term, anything else would ruin us imo. It's just a shame the game has come to this and not promoting teams based on merit. I personally think Leigh and Featherstone (more so Leigh) are suited for that 12th spot at the moment. But time will tell. Like I said, I'll be happy if the Bulls are chosen, who wouldn't but at the same time I'd feel like we shouldn't be there. As daft as it sounds I'm hoping for another season in the Champ, we were robbed of it in 2020 due to Covid and there are some great teams in there and there are some belting games especially with London, Featherstone, Leigh, Widnes, York and Toulouse all in there.

Can't see why the NRL would want Toulouse.

He's just goading people suggesting Toulouse are a shoe in. As you can see he/she makes no actual case for Toulouse.

In fact if the game wants away fans on the terraces who also follow the game on SKY by buying SKY subs then an alleged 2,000 French fans in Toulouse will do neither.

Championship club fans returning from Toulouse have at times casted doubts on the actual TO crowds, their last published crowd being only1,068. It's possible to love French Rugby League and at the same time not support their inclusion in the game here. Catalans of course were admitted to the game here to underpin a competitive French International side, an experiment they were allowed 14 years to come good with. Instead the opposite happened and we have stopped internationals with France.

The question isn't Toulouse for SL2022, the question is will Les Catalans be included? It may be noted Gausch rarely attends Superleague meetings, the chairmen not being fans of his, and at the start of this season he aligned himself and his club with Toronto Wolfpack by simply signing a big marquee player as some sort of "contribution" to the player pool. SL bosses were furious.

Well the idea of having a big crowd is as per the SL clubs lust for Bradford to be in Superleague.......is that thousands of Bradford away fans are likely to be visiting all the clubs here, spending on admissions and hospitality in the grounds along the M62.

Leeds got a below average 11,336 crowd for Catalans last time who brought few if any away fans and that's what the English SL clubs don't like. Should Leeds get Bradford next year it will probably be a sell out.

As for being a "Production Line" for players, Les Catalans closed their academy a few years back. The Bulls kept theirs going despite the financial adversity. Don't get me wrong, a well attended Catalans game in France is always great to watch, but they don't have an academy anymore, they don't underpin a French International team any more, they don't bring away fans here. they don't have a French TV deal......... Not good is it??

The 2022 season is a new era for the game so you have to look at just how little the English SL clubs think of Les Catalans, and just how much they appear to think of Bradford Bulls. Bulls could well come bottom 2021 but if Catalans are not included in the new SKY deal then they won't be relegating the Bulls even if they did come bottom. They'd probably be welcoming Leigh

That won't happen if we are getting battered every week. In our last year even home games against Warrington (6,173), Saints (6,311) and Wigan (6,525) were all well below normal because we were getting battered. Compare this to the start of the season Castleford (8,214) and London (8,500) when there was optimism for the new season. Fair enough early doors Wigan away (15,529), and Hull away (11,307) were great crowds but later on in the year Leeds away was only 16,000. That's a few thousand off the normal away crowd. But that was 7 years ago? Since then we've lost a fair few fans due to the running of the club. As I say initially there will be good crowds, but it will diminish when we inevitable get hammerings.



It will be a sell out due to it being Bradford's first league derby in 7 years. Again my personal idealist view is that away fans shouldn't be an issue. Down to the home team to fill the majority of the stadium ala NFL. However we don't live in an ideal world and I know from experience that away crowds do have an effect, especially being in League 1/Championship a lot of clubs have benefitted from our away following especially when in League 1.



They don't have an academy because they use [iSaint-Estève XIII Catalan[/i as a feeder club. It used to be UTC but UTC applied for SL and became Catalan Dragons, so they continued using UTC/Saint-Estève XIII Catalan in the Elite One competition in France. Makes more sense as an academy would have to play against our academies, more travel, more expense etc. There they can play against men in an actual competition. I love Catalans I just wish they continues the route of having a load of French players (they have 16 in their 30 squad). Then again development does take time, more of the French players are playing for tops clubs like Fages, Naverette, Escare (when at Wigan), Gigot etc. Which I think is the most certainly in the SL era. Shame Bosc's era has pretty much all gone as I thought that was the best French contingent in SL. The France team on paper isn't actually a bad one. Just nowhere near the likes of England, Tonga, NZ, Aus and maybe Fiji. but it should be competing with Wales, Scotland, Ireland and some 'lesser' pacific nations. Just that international RL means that some of the pacific teams are filled with heratige players. At least France has bona fide French players.



Again that's because the Bulls would benefit the financials of other SL clubs, as you say through the away follow. But that's just SL chairmen being self-ed and taking care of self interests. The game does need expansion, we already have an established French side. They need to stay. They provide the only pathway to the professional game for French players, without them the national team definitely does go to pot and you lose on average 7-9k fans. I'd love to see both Bulls and Leigh in SL. But I'd sooner see say a Salford side go down who average 2-3k rather than Catalans who average 7-9k and obviously don't have much away fans go over. This is all off field reasons rather than on field performances of course.

Well you are assuming Bulls will "get battered every week" . You assure me of the "inevitability" of the hammerings, but that's just your view on it. I suggest the scenario of a year on year demise of Bradford that we saw during their last few years in Supeleague did indeed lead fans not to bother as things became more desperate and the slide towards the championship steeper. Other clubs didn't help much, they were happy to take the Bulls players and the RFL were happy to hammer the bulls with penalties IIRC?

Their return is more akin to 1965, a club starting again, new owners prepared to invest, returning fans happy to support the club despite the sureity it could take a few years to return to former glories. This is a totally different scenario and i would credit the fans to not be "glory seekers" or just "jumping on a bandwagon". I would guess people like John Kear would talk to the fans and explain it will be a long process - stick with us. I think most will....

Quality and balanced post there Bulls Boy..

Of course it's just my view that we will get battered every week. But I'm taking a lot of factors into account. I'm taking the current squad quality into account (Championship playoff quality at the moment) and we're not exactly ripping trees up in the Championship. I'm taking into account the other 11 SL clubs are used to the week in week out intensity, we aren't. I'm taking into account our hybrid squad, we have about 10? full time players, the rest are part time. If we were to go FT we'd lose some quality as players might not want to make the jump to FT as they earn more PT and working. I'm taking into account the obvious disparity of the central funding. The lateness of the decision on Club 12. The lack of time to put together an SL squad. As the decision is so late (16th December) all that will be left are players no-one else wants, Toronto players (the better ones anyway) will either be snapped up or cost too much. I'm taking into account the cost of Odsal, which means less spent on the playing squad. The only things we have going for us on field is John Kear, that man can make miracles happen, but one-off miracles. I fear a season is long. And it's hard to make the step up and be consistent.

If you remember in those final years though a lot of fans (not necessarily Bulls fans either) were saying things like, "Oh they are too big to go down", "rules will change to keep them up", "they will bounce straight back up". I think really only Bulls fans did see that we were on the brink and going down. I could be wrong there though, 2014 was a long time ago!

Not down to other clubs to help to be fair? We had some quality players. They did right in going. They have to secure their future at the end of day, they have mortgages etc. Lower SL teams like Wakefield, Hull KR, Huddersfield were obviously going to pick our squad bare. End of the day they need to ensure their survival too. I will say this: Leeds were a massive help. From things like giving us paint to ensure we had markings on the field in 2012, giving us their share of the gates in the big 20,851 crowd in 2012 (dubbed last game at Odsal), loaning us players in 2017 so we could field a team, down to giving us the gate money in pre-season games. Leeds were a god send to be fair. Other clubs helped us raise the £500,000 too to be fair, but Leeds went above and beyond to help out.

Yeah the RFL penalties were ridiculous. The administration points were fair enough, but cutting central funding and redistributing to other clubs hit us harder than any point deduction. Punishing a team for having financial problems by cutting their money? Stupid. Then the whole fiasco of keeping us in the Championship for 2017 AFTER our liquidation when we should have been in League 1. Then giving us a 12 point deduction as a 'price' of staying in the Champ, then not allowing us to sign players for 2017 and cut our funding again. Thus relying on loans in February when the season started. Madness.



As much as I'd love that, it sounds like the view of someone from the outside looking in. It's not like 1965 at all. Not one Bulls fan I have spoken too sees us a club 'starting again' as such. Not one Bulls fan I have spoken too is happy with Wood, from the conversations I've had not many are happy with Wood, he's failed in a lot of things, doesn't have the cash, it comes across as another 'Green' or 'Chalmers' situation. I'd be happy if the new owners are prepared to invest but like I've asked you before, where is the money coming from??

Fans won't just return because it's a 'new' club. They have been sh*t on for a number of years. Many have been lost to the game completely. They won't just come back. It's not a case of 'glory hunting' it's a case of being lied to, disposable income is lower than ever so people spend their money on other things worthwhile. Honestly I'd love to see us come to SL and have 10k crowds etc. But that won't happen.

Again it's not Kear's job to do that, he's the head coach. It's down to the owners, Sawyer and Wood. Neither have been clear on their plans. Chalmers made a deal with Sawyer to play at Dewsbury and he accepted that. Other than that the only thing Sawyer has come out with is that we may return to Odsal in April (with no indication on how to pay for it) and that we will be applying for SL. It doesn't help that SL or the RFL haven't come out and been clear on the processes or the future of the game. But still, at least our owners could tell us what's going on?

Why don't you have the decency to reply to me in person, instead of passive aggressively through other posts?

You never have anything positive to say about any non UK club, especially Catalan who are the only successful expansion attempt from Super league and iirc, one of the larger clubs commercially.

Why would super league drop them?

Lastly you have lambasted Toronto for years now especially with their financial issues, yet believe Bradford should be a shoe in? Laughable.

No need to reply.

I have been to Odsal many times since the early seventies and have friends who have been Bulls fans for years, and I was at Odsal in May 2019 for the RL cup Game. 10,256 attended. The Bulls fans you speak to may well be sceptical, I can understand that. Only time will tell whether the Bulls being gifted an SL place will end in embarrassment or a new beginning like 1965.

Expansion was clearly defined as expanding the local French pro-player pool and expanding TV money with a paying French TV deal.

No such TV deal and now Now Casty has been chucked out they can bring another Aussie in

Why don't you actually do some research for once on the amount of French players in the English rl system prior to Catalans entry and now?

I used to go to Odsal every week and go to the games at Dewsbury. I also was there for that cup game, what an occasion it was. But for our first competitive fixture against our biggest rivals in 5 years, in a one off competition, we only got 10k. It’s a great crowd, potentially should have been bigger.

I hope your right I really do (if we are indeed Club 12). I’d love it to be a new beginning and to rebuild in the SL and produce and retain our homegrown talent.

What makes you confident that your club's financial issues are behind them?

If you have read any of my posts you should know that I don’t think that. Wood and Sawyer have no money and as I have asked before, where is the money for the safety of Odsal coming from? For what its worth I’m skeptical of Wood. I don’t think we should be considered anyway because in 2019 we had financial issues with Chalmers not paying the pensions.

It's OK he's just a tease, he thinks Catalans promote French players, but they don't.....

They have just booted out one of the few decent young French prospects they have in Lucas Albert..............

I of course wish you and Bulls all the very best in Superleague, it would be a good idea to say goodbye to Catalans







They add literally nothing to the SKY sports deal, and can't get a french TV deal.



If they stood down to the Championship they could play some actual French players, and play derbies with Toulouse. What's not to like there??

Plus Leigh could go up with Bradford Bulls........SORTED

WUM

Well not at all........the facts are on my side.....

The so called French expansion club now have 13 major signings that are NOT French and that makes a whole non-French first choice first team.

As the years go by they become less and less French. Casty and Albert are now out the door.

The only French players they have are squad players, making up the numbers and the fantasy that French RL is growing.

Ironically several of these French players come from Toulouse. How can Toulouse build a real French SL side if their best players are just squad bench warmers for Les Catalans? How many French lads will Toulouse show the door if they got in Superleague?

The reality is French RL has been on the slide since Les Catalans entered SL and the purpose of their entry - to underpin a competitive French International side disappeared one Thursday night in Leigh when Great Britain murdered them.

SL clubs are supposed to underpin the English TV deal and develop English players and the same was asked of Gausch - develop French players, get a French TV deal support a strong French International side. The Internationals went and now the Catalans Academy has gone.

Too easy of you to try to shoot the messenger all the time. Whether your actually French I dunno - it seems to have been regularly doubted on here for years. If you feel an urge to reply then please bookmark what I say here and refer back to it because it says it all about France being the saviour of Superleague and the international game.

A shrinking French game is not actually expanding anything but air miles

Is this YET ANOTHER made up post.

Perhaps you could answer Silent's question on the total number of French players in SL, which seems to suggest that you are wrong ?