In the same way it can have Sinfield at 9 and no Roby.

He is certainly better than Long is now, but Long at his peak? I dont even think its close.
Long led his team to everything, had some massive performances in some massive games. 3 Lance Todd trophies, he won a GF with the last kick of the game. I struggle to see what Brough has done to deserve such an accolade. He has yet to play a complete season in a top 4 side. He is 28 years old.

This is what i'd go with basing the selection on the elite training squad, which i thought was the point??

1.Sam Tomkins
2.Leroy Cudjoe
3.Michael Shenton
4.Chris Bridge
5.Tom Briscoe

6.Danny McGuire
7.Danny Brough

8.Adrian Morley
9.James Roby
10.Jamie Peacock

11.Ben Westwood
12.Jon Wilkin
13.Sean O'Loughlin

14.Luke Robinson
15.Joel Tomkins
16.Eorl Crabtree
17.James Graham

It's a fair question – as always with these types of debates, you have to consider the teams Long played in, the Saints team that won those Grand Finals was class with players of likes of Sculthorpe and Cunningham etc to compliment Long (in much the same way as I cannot work out if Sean Edwards was a great player or a good player who happened to play in team of greats)

Anyway, back to the point – comparing Long in his prime to Brough now. I think that Brough has the better kicking game (long and short) while Long was more dangerous with the ball in his hands. Brough is solid in defence whereas I felt Long was a little weaker especially earlier in his career

I guess the question is, would Brough look out of place in that great Saints team and I don’t think he would – in fact I think he would have the ability to star in it. Brough has a lot to prove over the next two or three years both with the Giants and England (whatever you think of his transition from Scotland which we won’t go into) but I think he can be a player for England to build their team around – he certainly has that world class kicking game we have been badly lacking for years

Farrell or Harrison could easily be as good as sinfield.

I doubt mossop will play in the exiles game ahead of morley, maybe mcarthy scarsbrook could play there or maybe one of the younger burgess'?

Robinson or Lunt starting on the bench?

at doing what?.....can't ever see farrell or harrison dropping in at 6...or 9...aswell as being able to play 13..


thats why sinfield has to get the utility spot on the bench

I watch them both every week and Robinson would be the one i would pick to come off the bench. As good as Lunt is ( and he will get a lot better) Robinson offers something different particularly in attack against tired forwards.

Remember that Robinson was the stand out English player in the 4 nations last year.

Lunt plays very similarly to Roby and would do a great job but Robinson offers something different at the minute.

my 17

1. s.tomkins
2. hall
3. j.tomkins
4. shenton
5. briscoe
6. brown
7. brough
8. peacock
9. roby
10 graham
11. larne patrick
12. ben harrison
13. o'loughlin

14. sinfield
15. crabtree
16. morley
17. westwood

Quote ="Lazlo Panaflex"Well, apart from the fact he's made yes yards, less carries, less offload, less tackle busts and averages less meteres per carry than Morley he's almost as good in attack, yes.'" And let's compare that to Lynch: www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2011 Yep, I stand by judgement.

Quote ="Lazlo Panaflex"Well, apart from the fact he's made yes yards, less carries, less offload, less tackle busts and averages less meteres per carry than Morley he's almost as good in attack, yes.'" And let's compare that to Lynch: www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2011 Yep, I stand by judgement.

Based on who is in the squad:

1. Sam Tomkins
2. Tom Briscoe
3. Leroy Cudjoe
4. Chris Bridge
5. Ryan Hall
6. Kevin Sinfield
7. Danny Brough
8. Adrian Morley
9. James Roby
10. James Graham
11. Ben Westwood
12. Ben Harrison
13. Sean O'loughlin

-------------------------------------

14. Luke Robinson
15. Jamie Peacock
16. Eorl Crabtree
17. Joel Tomkins

Andy Lynch and Kirk Yeamen aren't in the squad announced. Otherwise they would be both be included for me.

His defence from fullback is fine in alot of areas but his main problem is his lack of weight when defending the tryline. It's the only part of his defence that lets him down a touch as players can sometimes just power over him. His tackling in terms of one on ones when people break the line is very good as it was when he defended in the line from 6.

His positives in the fullback position far outweigh the negatives though.

Quote ="Fully"And let's compare that to Lynch: www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2011 Yep, I stand by judgement.'" Irrelevant. Andy Lynch isn't in the squad and neither is Kevin Brown (who you both have in your team).

Quote ="Fully"And let's compare that to Lynch: www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2011 Yep, I stand by judgement.'" Irrelevant. Andy Lynch isn't in the squad and neither is Kevin Brown (who you both have in your team).

They don't have to be in the team.

You DO realise they can be added from outside the train on squad?

So because they aren't in the squad announced at the start of the season, that's it then? That's some motivation there for you!

Also some of the players are injured?

i.e. Ben Jones Bishop, Leon Pryce, Richie Myler.

Andy Lynch will probably pick up an injury or decide he'd rather go on total wipeout round about the time the team is due to be named any way. So I don't think there's much point in anybody naming him in their squad.

Lockers has performed well everytime he's played for England apart from when he's been forced to play at 6. He's an outstanding loose forward and no one would do better than him there. Westwood has been immense in his performances for England as well and has showed he's easily comparable to the Aussies/kiwis its players around them that haven't performed. Morley is still one of the top Props in our competition and him, Peacock and Graham should be shoe ins imo.

Lockers has performed well everytime he's played for England apart from when he's been forced to play at 6. He's an outstanding loose forward and no one would do better than him there. Westwood has been immense in his performances for England as well and has showed he's easily comparable to the Aussies/kiwis its players around them that haven't performed. Morley is still one of the top Props in our competition and him, Peacock and Graham should be shoe ins imo.



Ben Harrison is injured aswell aint he ?

Andy Lynch ruled himself out of playing for England a few years ago. Family issues being the main problem. If he was gain for playing I would definitely have him in.



[size=50But in answer to your question - no I thought we were stuck with that squad. Wooops![/size

I think we will see both Farrell and Harrison as 2nd rowers.

Im not sure of the wisdom of throwing in young Burgess, he has done nothing as of yet, other than be young and a Burgess.

Re Brough vs Long, I think it's important that we have a scrum half who plays with structure. That for me was Long's main problem for GB (and he wasn't alone by any means) - great at unstructured plays and the odd planned move but not in just consistently working through sets of 6 to a plan. The idea (still spouted by some of our older 'experts') that some kind of British style of play involving off-the-cuff and inspired moments at the expense of organisation will somehow beat a well-drilled team with any regularity surely has no credibility. What we desperately need is a scrum half who focuses on organising forwards and setting up plays for the 6. If Brough can do that consistently there is no reason why he can't be seen as 'better' than Long at international level.

Watching GB/England in recent years against Australia has far too often being like watching a bunch of park players trying to throw the ball around against a physically superior team with class players. The lack of structure we show (and other basic issues like poor ball security, dreadful kicking games, lack of quality athletes in the backs and complete inability to defend against a structured attack) has made us look worse than we are.

Agree completely we need to play with a simple game plan especially to start with. Complete sets, good kicking game and build pressure. We also need to improve defensive and with that like you say physically as we get bullied in the backs far too often.

Maybe we should go with Brough at 7 and Sinfield at 6, that should ensure theres the organisation plus a good kicking game and S.Tomkins at 1 can implement the speed and running game of a 6 from fullback. The only thing is were that leaves Widdop but that will only be an issue if he plays well throughout this season or could play him from the bench. Maybe in the summer look at a team something like ...

S.Tomkins
Lawrence
Cudjoe
J.Tomkins
Briscoe
Sinfield
Brough
Graham
Roby
Morley
Burgess
Ellis
O'Loughlin
-----------
Widdop
Peacock
Crabtree
Westwood

Reserves... Robinson, Lomax, McGillvary, Shenton, Watkins, Farrell, Harrison, Wood, Patrick, Mossop etc.

Welham and Yeaman are both top try scorers this season. Shenton has defensive capabilities better than most other SL centres but his stats may be flattering due to the amount of work he is having to put in to look after his younger team mates at the moment? What I do not understand is why Bridge is getting in so many peoples teams? He doesn't have as much flair as those at Huddersfield, he is nowhere near the top of the try scoring charts even though he is in a free scoring team right now and his defensive work is nothing compared to Shentons.

Also as someone said we can't go playing players in new positions for their country to those that they are used to playing this season for their clubs like putting Briscoe at centre when he has been playing brilliantly on the wing. Yeaman and Welham are hard to really choose between but overall you would have to say Yeamans defence and partnership with Briscoe could swing it but then Welhams age might be what appeals to SM.

If we are to use this game as a warm up to the 4N then we can't go in to it picking players that are deffinately not going to be involved at the end of the year. If he has no intention of taking someone like Welham because he wants more experience and a defensive back line then don't go picking him for this game, the game is being played so we can be more competative at the end of the year and learn how to play together. Consistancy is the key IMO.

Leroy Cudjoe has scored 1 try in 13 games. Might as well go the whole hog and play Fox on his wing!!