Finally, a balanced viewpoint, rather than the "blind folded, fingers crossed brigade".

The Irony......oh the Irony


You started this thread with a hardly veiled swipe at the Expansionist Clubs. You "assumed" that as there were tickets on offer at a discount that this was because Catalan were one of the 4 sides and chose to focus on the "away fans" as an aside.

I gave you my viewpoint that whilst I trusted little that came out of the Toronto PR machine, we've had 130+ years to sort out the mess that the game is and why not try something new. I gave you my viewpoint, shared by many sports writers and journalists, that fans in the stadium is becoming less important in this ever changing multi-media market and I also repeated that the reality is that the away fans for a game at a local club like Wakefield are worth an average of less than £10,000 and that the lower gates at events have NO impact on anyone other than the RFL.....

But because my viewpoint doesn't fit with your anti-expansionist/fear of something different/protect my club at all costs agenda, you say it's blind folded finger crossing......point of order here, you don't know why ticket sales are slow, if they even are, for the double header, but you have repeated your opinion multiple times with no evidence to support it...... but I can show you using simple arithmetic that away fans are a red herring that play little roll in the running of a professional sports club or the RFL's coffers. I've also explained that neither semi finals in 2005 when Toulouse v Leeds attracted 10,553 or 2007 when Catalan attracted 10,218 attracted such a thread decrying expansionists.......in fact, the Catalan gate was almost identical at the HJ stadium as the one 2 years later between St Helens and Huddersfield......see, I use facts to counter your opinion and at every turn, you lose the debate, because you are simply put, anti-exansionist, because you fear for your clubs future if Super League were ever to actually become SUPER.

5,000 missing Catalan fans is worth 100k to the RFL........On a £25,000,000 turn over that's a pittance. 350 missing Catalan fans at Wakefield is worth £7,000 in lost revenue to Wakefield.......again, a fraction of a %......away fans don't matter.

And off we go again.

Whether fans matter and you seem to think that they dont is a huge part of the question.
As someone who misses maybe 3 games a season (home or away), I believe the balance has shifted way too far away from the paying public.
I realise that without TV/Sponsorship, we cannot enjoy professional sport and far from being anti expansionist, I've been quite the opposite, although this doesnt seem to fit with your "northern pit village" rhetoric



Although I couldnt make the away fixture in Perpignan this season, a group of us went to Toulouse this season and we always attended the away fixtures in London and Wales so, perhaps you should adjust your thoughts slightly.

The original post did question whether Catalan being one of the 4 semi finalists was the main reason behind poor ticket sales and whilst you considered this to be a "loaded" post, it s seemed a fair question.

We then get slurs on Trinity and its fans, pit village comments etc rather than any acknowledgement that there could be future issues with attendances for future RL events.

Fundamentally, you may have shown that any monetary loss is negligible, however, as a life long fan of the game, I find it difficult to accept that we would rather watch our game in half empty stadia because money is the driving force of the game, rather than looking after the sports paying customers.

Once we have a sanitised sport, laid on for the corporate elite instead of the regular fans, we no longer have a sport.

So what is it that you actually want to see from the sport?

It we take the general view that the sport is struggling to compete in this marketplace (given that we seem to be losing a greater proportion of top talent to overseas competitions, that we struggle to attract quality overseas talent (at least, ones that aren't banned from other comps), that participation is falling, that crowds are falling and the average age of our audience is going up), then a key challenge to addressing those issues is getting more finance into the game.

Now without turning the sport into a "sanitised corporate sport" that you seem to disaprove off, that would leave the sport needing to generate more finance from its supporter base. If that is the case, do you believe that the supporter base can contribute more? I would suggest that there is enough evidence out there to suggest that it can't (or won't) - we struggle to sell out key events, and the supporter base often isn't interested in events unless the tickets are sold at rock-bottom prices.

Or is the issue simply that you don't want the sport to address those issues, or that you don't believe the sport is facing those challenges? Is it simply a case that you don't want the sport to stray "out of its comfort zone", to remain something of a Northern oddity, simply because some clubs will be less equipped to meet the new standards than others?

Over the years I have been on RL fans there have been numerous threads about what the clubs and fans should be doing to market the sport - putting on events, fan engagement, community engagement, ancillary attractions, quality merchandise, etc. Toronto are doing all of these things, and making it work, yet for some on here that's still not enough. It just seems to me that people would much rather see the sport fail simply to see Toronto fail, rather than encouraging anything that drives this sport forward.

Nobody is saying that we want empty stadia - that isn't appealing to anyone and again, I believe you're seeing this as an either/or scenario. This isn't about forgetting the supporter base to chase the coporate dollar. It's about developing the fan base to make it and the sport more attractive to the commercial world.

And just a point about atmospheres, some of the best atmosphere's I've seen watching Leeds have been during the WCC events - not many Melbourne, Canterbury or Manly supporters in the crowd from what I recall of those nights.

What do I want as a fan of RL ?

Fairly simple answer, To be able to watch two evenly matched sides compete in a game of RL at a decent standard.
There is no secret that I am a Trinity fan and proud of it and for the record, although the "facilities" at some grounds were poor, the viewing of the game back in the day, when most fans had the opportunity to find their preferred viewpoint on the terraces AND be able to move freely around the grounds (both home and away) was significantly better than being forced to sit in a plastic seat, with little leg room and be constantly "hassled" by the constant stream of drinkers and toilet goers (usually the drinkers).
Of course the facilities at the newer grounds are far better than the old with, refreshments, toilets etc much improved but, much has been lost from "the good old days".
A decent view of the game and some chat with other supporters also adds to the matchday experience.

Of course, Rugby League has to compete with other sports to "entice" players into the sport and reward them for their efforts and therein lies the problem.

Our main "competition" for athletes who want to play league is perceived to come from Union, a sport that is far more wealthy than RL and probably always will be.
Union is played in good numbers across most of the UK and due to the history of the game, will remain dominant over our game. Before Union came clean and went professional, we were able to attract some great players into our code but, this pathway, although not officially closed, is no longer viable on anything other than an occasional "token" convert, Gareth Thomas being the last high profile signing.

Therefore, we are left paddling our own canoe, trying to develop our own, which ultimately is restricting "organic" growth and despite some efforts to "spread the gospel", we remain a marginalised sport, played mainly along the M62 corridor.

The expansion into into France, with PSG which was partially to raise the profile of the sport, was initially a spectacular flop (depspite the 10,000 attendance for their opening game) however, their replacement with Catalan, who you could say are from the "Heartlands in Catalonia" has certainly worked up to a point and with Toulouse now challenging for a spot in the top flight, this will help to strengthen RL in France and hopefully, in Europe and we should embrace this.

We then move along to N. America.

Encouraged by Nigel Wood Toronto have put together a squad of largely overseas players and spent their way to the top of League 1 and then to the top of The Championship and will more than likely replace Widnes in SL, unless of course their is a further restructure of the competition or, a breakaway of some sort.

There are several issues with the N. American club.
Firstly, there is little doubt that they have added some "X Factor" to both League 1 and The Championship and brought some publicity to the game. However, whilst they may have some local players in their squad, this remains a RL club built on sand and running at a substantial monetary loss since their inception and this should be ringing alarm bells everywhere.
Their consortium seem happy to bank roll them but, seriously, for how long ?
Equally, there isnt a hope in hell of them producing more than an odd one or two SL players for the foreseeable future.
So whilst some see this as the "Great RL Dream" (and cracking the N. American market would be one hell of a feather in Mr Wood's cap, a couple of tough seasons, especially if they were in a position to be relegated would end very badly.
It's a HUGE gamble and as we've seen with Koucash and more recently Beaumont, wealthy people are generally happy when they are getting the results that they want and why should Toronto be any different.
I've posted many times about including both Toulouse and Toronto in the top flight but, also that this should be done in an expanded SL (14 clubs) as it would be criminal to allow say 2 current SL sides fold to test Mr Woods dream.
The game is short on cash, no doubt but Toronto will likely be a drain on limited resources, rather than a contributor but, so many dreamers are happy to close their eyes and just hope.

So basically you are OK with expansion so long as it's not at the expense of your club.......

Lol at the wakefield fan claiming totonto are only where they are because they spent. If you listened to him you would think the likes of Man City, man united, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Melbourne storm, toulon rugby club, Philadelphia eagles, New England patriots and golden state warriors all got to where they are without spending a pennY. Wakefield are the perfect example of a club who are skint and therefore want to stop the rest of the league spending

Regards

King James

You could so easily apply this criticism to those who believe that we can address the game's challenges by "focusing on the heartlands".

My fear is that unless something happens to inject finance into the sport, the sport is going to find it harder and harder to deliver what you and I think most supporters want - an entertaining, competitive sport played to a high standard. In order to do that, the game needs the funds to address issues such as grass roots development, the real-terms cut in the salary cap that we've seen over the last 20 years, and the ability to develop, retain and attract players.

But from your posts on this issue, you don't seem comfortable with that injection of finance coming from trying to court commercial partners (it will make the sport sterile), you appear to think that the opportunity cost of exploring opportunities overseas is too great (and despite your "dreamers" swipe, I haven't seen any pro-expansion comment that doesn't ackowledge the risks), and your view is simply that we should focus on the heartlands even though there is enough evidence already to suggest that the heartlands aren't exactly fertile soil for new supporters, new players and new sources of funding.

The last few years we have seen a trend of games becoming less competitive (the average winning margin has increased for each of the last three years, and the number of games won by a margin or one score less has decreased in the same period) and, whilst the standard and entertainment value is subjective, I'd argue that those have fallen. In other words, you aren't getting what you want to see but at the same time, you're coming across as resistant to any change in the sport despite the fact that every other sport around us has changed to reflect changes in the modern sports environment.

I don't believe that Toronto and North America are the panacea to these problems, but I think that they're the best option at this point in time. The heartlands clubs, with very few exceptions, have demonstrated that they aren't capable of taking the sport forward.

And at this point, I'd lock this thread because it has been argued and shown that whilst Toronto may not be the answer, they and other expansion clubs are the best option we have now and the heartlands just don't care enough about our sport anymore.

Wakefield, a club with 145 years of history and a founder of the Northern Union can't attract any more than 4,000 people to games and IMHO, should no longer be permitted to hold the sport back, whilst clubs like Hull, Warrington, St Helens, Wigan, Leeds and Catalans strive for better performance both on and off the field. Whether you believe the hyperbole coming from Toronto or not (8,000 in their dreams maybe), they are worth a punt, because they didn't exist 2 years ago and are injecting passion into the game, whilst Wakefield seem to have lost close to 1,000 fans per game in 12 months.......no wonder the OP is afraid!
And in case this is taken as a pop solely at Wakey, the same goes for Widnes, Salford and once Ken Davy has had enough, Huddersfield....Castleford and HKR are heading in the right direction but should be monitored closely and Castleford do need a new stadium which will see them flourish like Wire have at HJ.

Same here: I'm ok with expansion so long as it's not at the expense of his club.

Binning one club to give a leg up to another isn't expansion, it's merely a glorified P&R.

Clubs treading water/treating survival as a victory is killing the sport. As I say, Toronto and expansion might not be the answer, but Wakefield is definitely not!

The problem is, that it shouldn't be about heartlands versus expansion, it should be both together. How they can work and move the sport onwards side by side. Progressing the sport. There are people on here who think it should be Toronto or Wakefield for example,When what it really should be is Toronto AND Wakefield.

Your right, the finances into the sport need to be improved. And as much as clubs are to be blamed for just hoping rather than promoting. The RFL can also be blamed, for a lack of a media push, a lack of getting the sport out there. The Eddie stobart deal so devalued the sport. They set it back years. In my opinion (and I know other won't agree), the franchise system did nothing to help. A league were nothing happens doesn't push a sport forward. The consent arguing for who gets the money, makes the sport seem petty. We don't do enough to make the sport come across in a good light. And until there's a proper international calender we will be seen as a small club sport. Which makes the whole sport harder to market.

We're always going to struggle to retain players. We all know that the Nrl is the best league, so of course we're always going to lose players to there. If you want to be the best, you have to play the best. And the fact that RU has such an international calender, means that players who want more than just a small club game, are going to go there.

Your totally right about the grass roots. The lack of funding and help we give them compared to say football is disgusting. But we also need to give young players a clear route to success. And that to me is academy, reserves 1st team. Who wants to play for 4 clubs on DR, or play in a sport were you might not get a game for weeks on end. To bring the best you have to show them how they're going to succeed and become one of your best.

You could argue that the standards aren't falling, but the players are getting better. But to me the games becoming boring. More sides are going for the 5 drives and a kick approach. Trying to win/milk penalties to move them down the pitch. Scoring off kicks, rather than spontaneous play. This isn't helped by coache's constantly going on about completing sets, doing the basics etc. If the product on the pitch isn't great, crowds aren't going to come flocking in. And long term fans get bored and choose there games to go to.
Plus the changes in society don't help our sport. The fact that there's so much football, and things to do without leaving the house. So little money avaliable to the average person, less time to relax. We're a working class sport predominantly and if they can't come there's no one to fill that void. Add in the money and Domination of football, the age group going to RL gets older. And we're doing very little to attract a younger denigration to the sport.
And if crowds don't come flocking in, then advertising and sponsorship falls. What the answer is I don't know, but something needs to be done.

This is precisely the nub of the entire argument. And it’s entirely the point of the whole debate.
I’m absolutely in favour of expansion. I agree totally with all the arguments in favour of Toronto, Toulouse etc etc. I think it’s a really exciting time for rugby league. But you and other posters have all acknowledged that we don’t know if Toronto (especially Toronto) will be a success, yet you think it’s worth a punt and it’s worth jeopardising the existence of clubs like Wakefield, Salford, Widnes etc.
Well, the history of expansion clubs isn’t too encouraging is it - Paris, Gateshead, Wrexham, Cardiff, Scarborough, Mansfield...... So, we ditch the clubs that are ‘holding the game back’ but the great North American dream crashes and burns. What do we have then? Oh yes a professional game comprising Wigan, Saints, Warrington, Leeds, Hull and Catalans. We could probably engineer Bradford, Toulouse and London in there too along with Cas. A ten team SL with the rest of the game dying on its ar5e. Even if Toronto succeeds (and I seriously hope it does) and more N American teams also come on board why do you think that it has to be at the expense of existing clubs? Why can’t we have expansion AND strong heartlands clubs? That’s the fundamental question facing the game. At the moment it doesn’t have an answer and neither do you. Rugby league can’t afford to lose a single club and all your statistics and passionate arguments are worth diddly if we jettison clubs and follow your preferred strategy because the game will lose its history, its heart, its soul and its very reason for existing.

But you’re not anti Wakefield???
And how do you know that Trinity aren’t ‘the answer’? If we’d been having this discussion back in 1980 you’d have been saying Wigan were part of the problem and Widnes were one of the teams we should be looking up to. Ten years ago it would have been Bradford. As you say, Toronto might not be the answer but don’t kid yourself that you definitely know what the answer is.

I can't speak for others on here but I personally don't believe that expansion has to be an either/or scenario. Yes, you have to set a limit of clubs in the top division at some point, but this isn't about ditching the loyal and faithful wife for a 21 year old blonde with bigger boobs.

What it is about is raising standards and raising the bar in terms of what clubs need to do to grow the sport, market the sport and themselves, and reach new audiences. What I think many who are against TW are most fearful of is that they set a standard that their club can't reach.

As I said earlier, there are some on here for whom nothing that TW does will ever be enough. If they pull in big crowds, those crowds are "exaggerated" and they've been counting the pixels on their TV screen to prove it. If they engage new, younger audiences, those fans are "only there for a beer festival". And if they attract big sponsors, that won't matter because they "don't bring any away fans".

TW have done everything that could have been asked of them in less than 2 years. For some their concern isn't about the state of RL, it's a fear that TW may set a standard that their club doesn't have the ambition or ability to reach.

That’s fine, couldn’t agree more. Clubs come and go and, if they can’t reach the required standards, on the field or off, they must find the level at which they can function. I just get the feeling that that’s not what some posters on here are advocating.

FWIW I agree with you (to a large degree anyway), I just fear for them if their benefactor pulls out as they have nothing to support them otherwise.

Btw, maybe it was the microphones in use at the game, but when the guy on the tannoy asked the crowd to "make some noise" it did sound like the Toronto faithful had been rudely awakened from their private conversations. I guess it's down to the way fans support their team, but the Canadians do seem very quiet!!

Thats not at all what I said at all and I think you know it.
I'm ok with expansion as long as "we" dont risk everything in the process and that those teams that are invited are a good "fit" with the league and the progressive evolution of the game.
Planting seeds in the desert in highly likely to be successful and it does seem that "our" sport is incapable of learning from some of its past mistakes.
You seem to have a problem with people who dare to question an opposing view to your own and yes, I may be wrong and you may be right that N. America is the promised land.
Let time be the judge of this one and lets just hope that, when this experiment has run its course, RL remains as a pro sport in the UK (and France).

Kent Invicta ? Celtic Crusaders ? Carlisle ?

Yeah, it's really funny, my sides are splitting whilst I'm trying to reply.
Toronto have spent massively compared to the competition that they've had thus far.
However, assuming that they gain promotion, they will be on a level playing field with many SL clubs and not spending substantially more.
We will then see just how good they are.

I love the Wakey criticisms about them not spending, quite ironic when you look at the sides that they have beaten this season, Wigan, Saints, Hull FC...........
FWIW, we should have been increasing the cap,year on year, since SL began and for those still blaming "clubs like Wakefield" for holding everyone else back, how many clubs are using the second marque player 1,2,3 ??
Other clubs just use the smaller clubs as an excuse for their own failings and their inability to compete higher up the table.

My passion maybe, but not the statistics.
The game losing its History, it's heart and Soul and its reason for existing.......remind me why the game exists? Ah, that's it......so players could be recompensed for their time playing. Currently the players are paid only because the TV deal with Sky allows it. Remove or reduce the Sky money and see what happens (have a gander at the Leigh and Featherstone Rovers boards)......as for the games History and Heart and Soul, Leigh averaged 6,521 last year in the regular SL season.......3,538 this year.....where's the 2982 missing fans gone........top flight competition is what they want......not History, Heart & Soul.
Those that hark for the days of winter rugby, local derbies, bus trips 20 minutes up to road to away games......those people are dying in their droves and as our average age of supporter goes up, the number in attendance go down. I care little if Toronto implode or not......they have introduced the game (and beer festivals) to a new audience and good on them. Wakey got 7,020 for the visit of local rivals Castleford, Toronto "declared" 8,000+ for the visit of Featherstone......a town slightly more than a bus trip around the corner. I suspect they are adding 25% to their gates based on corporates given but not using tickets, so they are still averaging 5,250 at games.....they look to have a business plan that none of the failed expansion clubs ever had. Expansion done the PSG/Crusaders/London way involved sticking posts in the ground, announcing KO times and expecting curious locals to come and watch, get hooked and buy season tickets......the disputes I have had with London over their failure in this department are well recorded.......but Toronto look like a different animal. YES.....I still am skeptical, but for a chance to crack a new market with new sponsors and new revenue streams, I'd bury those clubs that treat survival as a victory.....

What exactly have clubs like Wakefield, Halifax, Batley, Keighley, Oldham, Rochdale etc actually done over the past 30 years with regards to the expansion or enhancement of the sport overall? Pray tell me??
TWP and other potential NA clubs open up new markets which bring EXPANSION to the sport; money, exposure, people, connections. Have any of the above clubs been able to support or maintain such factors??

Failed from the outset because their owners did not market or make their clubs a bold awareness to the wider world. They expected pople to simply rock up. Build it and they will come mentality. Often the owners of such clubs (including the Israeli born Marwan Koukash) who may have been successful in their own business portfolios yet have been absolutely clueless of how to run a sports clubs. Time and time again we have seen this over and over in RL, soccer, RU, Cricket....

It's quite strange how RL treats it's smaller clubs, compared with say, football.

When a club like Burnley, with relatively limited resources, gains promotion to the top flight, they are embraced and recognised for their "over achievement" but in our sport, "fans" of other clubs besmirch the audacity of the smaller clubs for daring to breathe.
Non of this existed pre SL, when the only criteria for being in the top flight was finishing in the top 2 places in the league below and some of the bigger clubs licked their lips at the "2 easy points" that they would gain.
Super League created a more acrimonious environment where clubs were "measured" on various criteria, some of it quite laughable, and clubs were instantly set against one another and still, fans of certain clubs, seem to have difficulty in watching the sport,without first using some measuring stick of whether their own club is "better".
Sport should always be about what happens on the field of play and not based on numbers of plastic seats.
Yes, there should be minimum standards but, RL and many of its fans seems to have lost sight of the SPORT that we all used to enjoy.

there is a big difference. association football is the biggest sport in the country and the world, RL is not, they can afford to have a 20 team league with practically unlimited resources and still only have 4-5 clubs as serious contenders the rest are cannon fodder just happy to be there. we cannot do that in RL.