I think having golden point ET is a fantastic idea and you should embrace it with open arms.

It's the future of Superleague.


I reckon it will be introduced by 2012 and if it isn't then my name isn't Barrington Balgowlah Barangaroo Berowra Bewdy Bonza McKenzie.

Actually that isn't my name... but you get the picture.

I remember that incident very clearly. I think it was the first season the ruling came in in the UK, though I'm far from sure just when it came in the international rules.

Nope. You're thinking of the so-called eight-point try. i.e a penalty awarded in front of the sticks, to be taken after the conversion attempt.

That may be awarded only when a player is touching down & not afterwards.

Why do you think 'certain' should come into it? The test is: if in the referee's opinion a try would have been scored but for the infringement. Certainly is nice but not necessary.

The probable reason so few penalty tries are awarded in ESL (and NRL) is that the refs are told by their controllers NOT to award them unless certain. In other words, told to ignore the laws of the game.

The problem is you cannot pretend that Fox doesn't exist at all simply because his actual action was illegal, I cannot see any interpretation of the laws which leads to that, the presumption has to be: if Fox had timed his tackle a second later, giving time for one of Hodgson's feet to touch the ground, is it possible he may still have pushed Hodgson into touch?

Removing the illegal action does not mean the player in question ceases to exist, that would be silly. Now given how close Fox was, it is entirely possible he could still have pushed Hodgson in to touch before he grounded the ball, had he waited one or two seconds longer, therefore I think penalty attack was an entirely reasonable decision.

That's nonsense if you don't mind me saying so.

Imagine an attacker cantering towards the sticks for a try. Out of his eyeline a defender has sprinted back but instead of tackling the man he chooses to stiff arm his opponent who falls unconscious to the ground a yard from the goal line, losing the ball in the process.

Should the referee merely award a penalty attack on the basis that a legal tackle could have prevented a try?

The judgement is made on what a player does, not on what he might have done.

As for "certainty" or "the act of scoring" there's no such wording in the rules. In theory a referee could award a penalty try based on an illegal act on halfway if, in his opinion, a score would otherwise have resulted.

[i"the Referee may award a penalty try if, in his opinion, a try would have been scored but for the
unfair play of the defending team."[/i

It is, though, one of many areas where the laws could do with a substantial revision. If player A is in the act of scoring, but before the ball touches down Player B kicks him in the head him and knocks him out so the ball is dropped, a penaly try will be awarded. But if he kicks him half a second later, after the try has been scored, the ref has an option of an eight point try. What's the difference?

In the case in question, even with the illegal tackle, Fox only just hit the corner flag first. So yes, it is true that he would certainly have scored if not for the tackle.

The problem with this particular rule and these particular interpretations is this: if a player dives for a kick and catches the ball, so that the very first thing which is going to touch the ground is the ball, this interpretation makes him literally immune form being legally tackled. He can't be tackled whilst diving (he hasn't got the ball); he can't be tackled on catching it (he's off the ground). A defender could only try to place himself in such a way as to prevent a touchdown. There is no way he could legally touch the diving player whilst still in the air. And in my opinion that is a ridiculous result.

The coaches on Sky said they thought the attacking player can be tackled in the air. Can he or can't he? Another ridiculous thing is that the RFL in general, and the refs controller in particular, nowadays never ever go public in clearing up these interpretations.

4 points

=#8040FF2, possibly 4, it depends on if the kicker gets both conversions or not (and would he have missed the original kick)

I was naturally assuming player 'A' crashed over right underneath the posts and the goal kicker had kicked 2 from 2 already, the conditions were dry and there was no wind

Precisely.

Lance Hohaia's try in the World Cup Final is the perfect example. He didn't even have possession, the ball was bouncing, there were other defenders chasing the ball and he was a good few yards away and not even over the tryline when he was felled. There was no 'certainty' about it - yet the ref determined that in his opinion, a try would have been scored but for the unfair play of the defending team.

Any number of things [icould [/ihave happened. Hohaia could have slipped, the ball could have taken a wicked bounce, a defender could have reached him just after he gathered the ball and got his body underneath to prevent the grounding. What the defender could or could not have done is not the question posed by the Laws: the only question is, would the try have been scored without the unfair play?

And I find it extraordinary any RL coaches think players can be tackled in the air. I've known about it for years.

So what would you want to happen in that situation?

There are legal things that can happen. The defender can go for the ball himself and if level can of course shoulder barge across.

Indeed, if he is there to make the tackle, he can equally contest the ball.

I think the fact that a penalty was awarded for tackling an attacking player in the air made it pretty clear that you can't tackle an attacking player in the air. How much clearer does it need to be?

Someone should tell the coaches the rules...

The coaches who think it's ok are all Australian. In Australia it's legal to tackle the attacking player whilst in the air. Another example of the NRL having its own rules or are we out of step?

True. The ARL Laws state the no-tackle-in-the-air rule only applies when a player on the non-kicking team catches the ball on the full, however you CAN tackle attacking players from the kicking team. It should make no difference whatsoever because we are playing by the RFL Laws, and the game we're discussing was under RFL Laws - I don't blame Peter Fox, who was just determined to prevent a try (whether he knew it was an illegal challenge or not), but I do blame the coaches who haven't bothered to check.

I think FA was working from the position that the attacker had already caught the ball and was somehow out of reach of defenders at take-off, but would be within their reach at the point of landing. Obviously it's an edge case, but I'd like to know what FA would want the law to be in that case.

This is what I think is considered when deciding to award a penality try or not, if the offence hadn't been committed would something else possibly have happened to stop the try? I'm also far from convinced that the laws as stated require the officials to remove the offending player from those alternative scenarios where an offence has not been committed, so if Fox had not offended could he have done something legal to stop the try being scored instead?

he could have done, but by no mean necessarily would have done.

Fox would have been taken out of the equation by committing an illegal act, he doesnt then get the benefit of judging whether or not he could possibly have done something different.

If it was another player however i.e had Fox not tackled the player but another player elsewhere was in a position to do so, they would be taken into account

I agree.

But the whole thing seems a bit perverse.

A defender makes a valiant (and legal) effort to stop a try but the attacker is given the benefit of the doubt on video review.

The defender prevents a score with a piece of foul play and the refs seem to be under instructions not to award the four points unless they are absolutely certain a try would have resulted.

Legal defensive play = benefit of the doubt to the attack.

Illegal defensive play = benefit of the doubt to the defence.

No, I said



It doesn't matter if he is in reach of defenders "at take-off". Shoulder-to-shoulder ball contests apart, you can't do anything to tackle a player before he has got the ball.

I can imagine how in certain circumstances (if much less frequently) the risk to an attacker being tackled in mid air may be as bad as for a defender catching a kick, although generally it isn't directly comparable. But I don't see how you can prohibit a defender from attempting a tackle to prevent a try, and I think the interpretation of the rule that we saw is nonsensical. The attacker was placed in no danger by the tackle, nor was he likely to be, and ATEOTD you can't expect the defender to just leave the player to catch and score, he has to be allowed to prevent the try if he can. Leaving him just the option of getting between ball and ground is absurd.

And another thing - there is no real point in having the rule this way, as every defender will always make that tackle every time. No defender is going to just let the guy sail through to score unmolested, and rightly so.

You could either simply interpret it the Aussie way - ie you can tackle attacker in the air full stop; or maybe if he is tackled, but put in a dangerous position as a result, use that rule to award the penalty. There is very much less chance of an attacker being put in a dangerous position, than a defender by onrushing attackers, and so that would in my book be a reasonable compromise.

Right, so there's one thing that the defender can do. Along with jumping for the ball (if he's in reach of the attacker, he will probably have a chance of getting to, or at least challenging for, the ball). Both legal methods of doing something rather than the illegal approach that was taken.

I don't see why there has to be a rule in place to allow the defender to do something in this situation. If it's a good enough kick/catch/jump, the attacking side has earned the right to score. If the defending player is in such a poor position that he can't make a legal play to prevent the score, that's his problem. Just as it would be his problem if the attacker stepped him, leaving him off balance and with no other way of stopping the ball-carrier other than by making a high-tackle.

I agree, but it's the possibilities that are considered.



The problem I have with this is that nobody has demonstrated where in the laws it actually says the offending player must be removed from consideration in alternative scenarios had the illegal act itself not taken place. Everyone seems to agree that the consideration is about the probability of a try being scored had the illegal act not happened. So I'm possibly being pedantic here, but I draw a distinction between the player and the act itself, and the laws don't appear to rule against my distinction.

I've seen penalty tries given where the offender was unlikely to stop a try in any other way than committing a foul, but I'm not convinced this case fits that category, because I think if Fox hadn't have fouled, if he'd have executed one or two seconds later he may still have done something to stop the try which would not have been illegal.



But where does it say that Fox is ruled out of possible scenarios had he not committed the foul?