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| Quote ="Richie"Which is why I have consistently referred to "rugby" rather than RL. Have no doubt that junior RU is heavily scouted.
'" But if they arent playing RL they arent playing RL. I never enjoyed playing RU, I loved playing RL. I dont think RU comes close hoovering those we miss, but there are still lots out there who may not want to play RU but do want to play RL.
Quote ....and what makes you think there is a stack of these top class athletes suited to RL playing minority sports instead?'" Because very few players come from outside the heartlands. There isnt something intrinsic within a Yorkshire athlete that means they are more suited to RL than a Cornish athlete, there are just very few who have the opportunity try RL and very very few who are picked up and get the training they would need.
Quote Is it the clubs not taking the risk or the players not taking the risk? How would you have persuaded a 15 year old Liam Botham to give up the time he was investing in RU and cricket, and invest it in RL instead? If clubs aren't investing time in training someone who has previously shown no interest in carrying a ball and running with it and tackling people, and are instead investing their time in a player who has shown both an interest and an aptitude for that, then there is likely a good reason.
'" Botham himself said he wished he had found RL earlier.
There simply isnt the level of coverage throughout the country to assum everyone who a) has the inherent natural athletic ability and b) would like to play RL has had the opportunity to play it.
Quote In which case the answer is to invest the resources the sport has in to development officers and junior coaching, rather than invest those resources in sending scouts to athletics and wrestling meets'"
they should be two completely separate things with two separate sources of funding. They arent mutually exclusive. I dont why we cant do both, it wouldnt cost a whole lot of money.
Besides it cant be cheap sending someone over to Australia a couple of times a year. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"But if they arent playing RL they arent playing RL. I never enjoyed playing RU, I loved playing RL. I dont think RU comes close hoovering those we miss, but there are still lots out there who may not want to play RU but do want to play RL. '"
No, they're playing RU. We'll find them in that sport. Unless they want to play RL but don't want to play RU, in which case we'll find them in RL. Getting development officers out will give them a chance to play.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"Because very few players come from outside the heartlands. There isnt something intrinsic within a Yorkshire athlete that means they are more suited to RL than a Cornish athlete, there are just very few who have the opportunity try RL and very very few who are picked up and get the training they would need.'"
Perhaps that just shows how hard a sport it is to learn.
If we want to give them that opportunity though, it's going to be through community development officers and junior clubs, not through sending scouts to trampolining competitions.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"There simply isnt the level of coverage throughout the country to assum everyone who a) has the inherent natural athletic ability and b) would like to play RL has had the opportunity to play it.'"
So we need to get more development officers out there.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"they should be two completely separate things with two separate sources of funding. They arent mutually exclusive. I dont why we cant do both, it wouldnt cost a whole lot of money. '"
But they are not, and they never will be. Money is money and can be used for anything. Any money we invest in one thing is money no longer available to be invested elsewhere.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"
Besides it cant be cheap sending someone over to Australia a couple of times a year.'"
We could stop doing that. Although there are many that feel Australia are ahead of us and we need to keep an eye on what they're up to. |
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| Quote ="Richie"No, they're playing RU. We'll find them in that sport. Unless they want to play RL but don't want to play RU, in which case we'll find them in RL. Getting development officers out will give them a chance to play.
Perhaps that just shows how hard a sport it is to learn.
If we want to give them that opportunity though, it's going to be through community development officers and junior clubs, not through sending scouts to trampolining competitions.
So we need to get more development officers out there.
But they are not, and they never will be. Money is money and can be used for anything. Any money we invest in one thing is money no longer available to be invested elsewhere.
'"
All you seem to be arguing is that sending scouts out to different sports to identify talent and increasing development officers are mutually exclusive. They clearly arent.
And money isnt money, it comes from different places and has differing responsibilities, we are getting £30m from sport england that can solely be used for increasing participation, it cant be used for anything else. There is no issue with the RFL spending that £30m on increasing participation and clubs spending maybe £30k a year on scouting and training a few players who havent tried RL before but the have the inherent athletic ability to be able to.
Quote We could stop doing that. Although there are many that feel Australia are ahead of us and we need to keep an eye on what they're up to.'" in which case we should be sending young coaches out there, not scouts, or CEO's to sign players/ |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"All you seem to be arguing is that sending scouts out to different sports to identify talent and increasing development officers are mutually exclusive. They clearly arent.'"
So where is the money coming from to send the scouts, and why do you think it's more worthwhile there than in community coaches?
Quote ="SmokeyTA"And money isnt money, it comes from different places and has differing responsibilities, we are getting £30m from sport england that can solely be used for increasing participation, it cant be used for anything else. There is no issue with the RFL spending that £30m on increasing participation and clubs spending maybe £30k a year on scouting and training a few players who havent tried RL before but the have the inherent athletic ability to be able to.'"
Which is the source that can be send on scouting, but can't be sent on coaching?
Quote ="SmokeyTA"in which case we should be sending young coaches out there, not scouts, or CEO's to sign players/'"
I agree. Well, coach coaches might be more effective than the coaches themselves, as would bringing better coaches here to teach our coaches. |
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By the time a kid is identified as an elite athlete at one particular sport (whether that be athletics, football, gymnastics or whatever) it's usually because they've made the decision to pursue that particular sport ahead of all others and devote their free time to it.
Turning up to say the English schools athletics championships and asking the 400m winner whether he's ever fancied playing rugby league is going to be an exercise in futility. He's already picked his sport and his event and will be devoting all his time to being the best at it he can possibly be.
For what it costs in time and money to do that sort of targeted scouting you can probably get 100 kids in a school somewhere playing the game and take your chances that one of those goes on to play the sport at the top level.
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Question.
If the whole problem is playing numbers. Why hasnt the English soccer team got to more than one major final in its entire history, and why hasnt it got to more than a couple semi-finals in its entire history?
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| Quote ="Code13"Question.
If the whole problem is playing numbers. Why hasnt the English soccer team got to more than one major final in its entire history, and why hasnt it got to more than a couple semi-finals in its entire history?'"
Think you'd need to go to some soccer forum to ask them.
I suspect you'd issues such as number of non-English players at the top level (which is a far greater problem for that sport than it is in RL) club power, junior focus on winning rather than coaching, winter seasons and available training facilities not conducive to skills training.
I don't know enough about their elite player pathways to comment on that aspect. I give anecdotal evidence (Villa, Cov and Birmingham U18s teams used to run trial matches next to where we coached the RL RPDC this year) that even at U18 level, the pro club squads are dominated by foreign players.
Anyway, besides the point, it's a sport I'm not interested in. |
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| Quote ="Andy Gilder"For what it costs in time and money to do that sort of targeted scouting you can probably get 100 kids in a school somewhere playing the game and take your chances that one of those goes on to play the sport at the top level.'"
Bingo. And just think how many kids a junior development officer costing <£30K a year can get around to. Thousands. Then on top of that, part of their role is typically coaching coaches and helping amateur clubs, something else people seem to be crying out for. |
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| Quote ="Code13"Question.
If the whole problem is playing numbers. Why hasnt the English soccer team got to more than one major final in its entire history, and why hasnt it got to more than a couple semi-finals in its entire history?'"
See Richie's point below.
Also, according to Sport England figures in July 2009 approximately 3m adults in the England participated in football (indoor or outdoor) once a month. Not sure, but I'd be surprised if that's a higher figure than say Brazil or even some other European countries |
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England has more prof players to pick from than NZ, alot more. Quantity is not the issue, its quality that's the problem.
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| Quote ="JB Down Under"England has more prof players to pick from than NZ, alot more. Quantity is not the issue, its quality that's the problem.'"
How do junior numbers compare? |
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| Quote ="JB Down Under"England has more prof players to pick from than NZ, alot more. Quantity is not the issue, its quality that's the problem.'"
That's because England has significantly more professional clubs than New Zealand, which has a grand total of one.
How do the numbers of people participating in rugby league stack up? |
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| Quote ="Richie"So where is the money coming from to send the scouts, and why do you think it's more worthwhile there than in community coaches?'"
The Clubs would be the ones expected to pay for it.
We are probably extracting all we can from those already playing RL in the heartlands. Yes we could likely train them better but common sense tells us that we will pick up a huge percentage of those with the inherent talent to play RL, who are already playing RL in the heartlands. It also tells us, as does the evidence, that we arent picking up a large percentage of those with the inherent talent to play RL who arent playing RL and arent in the heartland.
Quote Which is the source that can be send on scouting, but can't be sent on coaching?'" The clubs,
Quote I agree. Well, coach coaches might be more effective than the coaches themselves, as would bringing better coaches here to teach our coaches.'" certainly. |
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| Quote ="JB Down Under"England has more prof players to pick from than NZ, alot more. Quantity is not the issue, its quality that's the problem.'" one third of junior players affiliated to the NRL are Kiwis. One third of the players to go through the best youth development system in the rugby world are kiwis. |
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| Quote ="Andy Gilder"By the time a kid is identified as an elite athlete at one particular sport (whether that be athletics, football, gymnastics or whatever) it's usually because they've made the decision to pursue that particular sport ahead of all others and devote their free time to it.
Turning up to say the English schools athletics championships and asking the 400m winner whether he's ever fancied playing rugby league is going to be an exercise in futility. He's already picked his sport and his event and will be devoting all his time to being the best at it he can possibly be.
For what it costs in time and money to do that sort of targeted scouting you can probably get 100 kids in a school somewhere playing the game and take your chances that one of those goes on to play the sport at the top level.'"
That isnt the case at all, most people who go on to be professional sports people are playing multiple sports and have been identified as having the potential to be elite athletes.
Besides i think you are going a bit further than I would propose. Im not talking about finding the fastest 16 year old 100 metre runner in the country and seeing if he wants to play RL, im talking closer to county level, and even then it doesnt need to be the best, simply someone able to perform at a high level. the 20th fastest hundred metre sprinter in Britain would easily be the fastest 100 metre sprinter in RL. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"The Clubs would be the ones expected to pay for it.
We are probably extracting all we can from those already playing RL in the heartlands. Yes we could likely train them better but common sense tells us that we will pick up a huge percentage of those with the inherent talent to play RL, who are already playing RL in the heartlands. It also tells us, as does the evidence, that we arent picking up a large percentage of those with the inherent talent to play RL who arent playing RL and arent in the heartland.
The clubs,
certainly.'"
 Is this a SL rule or an RFL rule that says clubs can spend money on scouting badminton tournaments, but not spend it on community coaching?
I'm not sure your "evidence" that "we aren't picking up a large percentage of those with the inherent talent to play RL who aren't playing RL and arent in the heartland" and are willing and able to play RL really stacks up here. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"That isnt the case at all, most people who go on to be professional sports people are playing multiple sports and have been identified as having the potential to be elite athletes.
Besides i think you are going a bit further than I would propose. Im not talking about finding the fastest 16 year old 100 metre runner in the country and seeing if he wants to play RL, im talking closer to county level, and even then it doesnt need to be the best, simply someone able to perform at a high level. the 20th fastest hundred metre sprinter in Britain would easily be the fastest 100 metre sprinter in RL.'"
So we take UK athletics sprinters #20 to #80, who likely can't change direction, catch a ball, carry a ball, throw a ball, take a hit or make a hit. We invest our limited coaching resources in them (at the expense of other players of course, because we don't have unlimited coaching resources) and that's going to push us ahead in rugby league? |
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Any merit to a mid - season series against the Kiwi's when SOO is going on?
Alternate each year i.e. them coming to us, us going to them. 3 Match series....
Club rugby continues just as it does in the NRL.
Logistically difficult and the clubs would obviously object but it might be a further opportunity for clubs to blood youngsters into the Super League environment during this period.
Oh and England get more Test Matches!
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| Quote ="MTaylor59"Any merit to a mid - season series against the Kiwi's when SOO is going on?
Alternate each year i.e. them coming to us, us going to them. 3 Match series....
Club rugby continues just as it does in the NRL.
Logistically difficult and the clubs would obviously object but it might be a further opportunity for clubs to blood youngsters into the Super League environment during this period.
Oh and England get more Test Matches!'"
Maybe so, just that we've seen how players have struggled after such travel mid-season, and not just in the test but in the match after too.
Sometimes I think the RFL should invest part of their available funding into scramjet research  |
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pretty simple really ,play junior rugby league in the summer.you will get more kids playing and it wont compete with football.
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| Quote ="saintnickle34"pretty simple really ,play junior rugby league in the summer.you will get more kids playing and it wont compete with football.'"
Completely agree. Far better for skills coaching too, rather than have them running around for the whole session, just so they can keep warm. |
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Numbers playing the game in the UK is an issue, we are never going to compete with football there are still huge numbers out there looking for competitive sport that the RFL can go for. I am sure I've read on here that numbers have increased markedly in recent years, but there is a long way to go and it is years before we'll reap any rewards.
Do we need more things like this? www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/8381 ... he_future/
I know it’s not even started but to me it is a very promising link up providing school kids with top class facilities and coaches, and junior players with education on site. I've also read that there could be plans to have boarders studying at the school and part of Saints junior set up, allowing talent to come from far and wide.
Aside from Club and Fan mentality which are focused upon themselves rather than England RL and the fundamental issues with our support play and defence, there are serious issues with the basic development of our backs, we seem perfectly adept at producing forwards who can compete with the best in the world but pace, guile and creativity is desperately lacking out wide.
Bear in mind I only started watching RL in 1993, where are the next Connolly, Newlove, Offiah (I know he didn’t start RL) or Robinson coming from?
Players like Sam and Kyle have the raw skills and potential to create opportunities for three quarters but there are slim pickings of players ready to step in, maybe Tom Briscoe and Ryan Hall have the speed and ability to be very good, Shenton has had a promising 2nd half but he has an awful lot of improvement to get close, if these 3 could kick on we’d be much more competitive but that is such a big IF. Chris Bridge, Lee Smith are two potentially better options than what we have at present but good enough to compete? Doubtful.
Peter Fox, Ryan Atkins have the physique and pace to stand out but seem to lack skill, ability and confidence at International level, we’ve lost a couple of potential players to RU but so many of these supposedly talented backs come through touted as future international stars and then some stagnate or just disappear, Tony Stewart, Kirk Yeaman, Karl Pryce, Ste Tyrer, Kevin Penny, Richard Horne, Mark Calderwood, Ritchie Mathers, Shaun Ainscough, Stuart Reardon to name a few can anyone put the finger on why the forwards can progress and the back don’t? In that same period we’ve developed Graham, Roby, Ellis, Burgess, Joel Tomkins, O’Loughlin, (Hock), Crabtree, Westwood who are more or less as good as their international rivals (and there are several more coming through now)
What about Ben Jones-Bishop, Kallum Watkins, Josh Charnley, Jamie Foster, Lee Gaskell, Reece Lynne, Richard Owen, Stefan Marsh I don’t think any are close to ready yet but are they potential world stars or just promising Super League players great at academy level? |
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Numbers playing the game in the UK is an issue, we are never going to compete with football there are still huge numbers out there looking for competitive sport that the RFL can go for. I am sure I've read on here that numbers have increased markedly in recent years, but there is a long way to go and it is years before we'll reap any rewards.
Do we need more things like this? www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/8381 ... he_future/
I know it’s not even started but to me it is a very promising link up providing school kids with top class facilities and coaches, and junior players with education on site. I've also read that there could be plans to have boarders studying at the school and part of Saints junior set up, allowing talent to come from far and wide.
Aside from Club and Fan mentality which are focused upon themselves rather than England RL and the fundamental issues with our support play and defence, there are serious issues with the basic development of our backs, we seem perfectly adept at producing forwards who can compete with the best in the world but pace, guile and creativity is desperately lacking out wide.
Bear in mind I only started watching RL in 1993, where are the next Connolly, Newlove, Offiah (I know he didn’t start RL) or Robinson coming from?
Players like Sam and Kyle have the raw skills and potential to create opportunities for three quarters but there are slim pickings of players ready to step in, maybe Tom Briscoe and Ryan Hall have the speed and ability to be very good, Shenton has had a promising 2nd half but he has an awful lot of improvement to get close, if these 3 could kick on we’d be much more competitive but that is such a big IF. Chris Bridge, Lee Smith are two potentially better options than what we have at present but good enough to compete? Doubtful.
Peter Fox, Ryan Atkins have the physique and pace to stand out but seem to lack skill, ability and confidence at International level, we’ve lost a couple of potential players to RU but so many of these supposedly talented backs come through touted as future international stars and then some stagnate or just disappear, Tony Stewart, Kirk Yeaman, Karl Pryce, Ste Tyrer, Kevin Penny, Richard Horne, Mark Calderwood, Ritchie Mathers, Shaun Ainscough, Stuart Reardon to name a few can anyone put the finger on why the forwards can progress and the back don’t? In that same period we’ve developed Graham, Roby, Ellis, Burgess, Joel Tomkins, O’Loughlin, (Hock), Crabtree, Westwood who are more or less as good as their international rivals (and there are several more coming through now)
What about Ben Jones-Bishop, Kallum Watkins, Josh Charnley, Jamie Foster, Lee Gaskell, Reece Lynne, Richard Owen, Stefan Marsh I don’t think any are close to ready yet but are they potential world stars or just promising Super League players great at academy level? | |
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| Quote ="Richie"icon_confused.gif Is this a SL rule or an RFL rule that says clubs can spend money on scouting badminton tournaments, but not spend it on community coaching?'" No, but we have many many coaches already in the heartlands. So Leeds arent going to feel any kind of huge benefit in spending more money on another community coach in Leeds, there is a saturation point in the heartlands.
Leeds arent also going to randomly decide to pay for a community coaching in Plymouth.
Quote I'm not sure your "evidence" that "we aren't picking up a large percentage of those with the inherent talent to play RL who aren't playing RL and arent in the heartland" and are willing and able to play RL really stacks up here.'" well, i like everyone else, cant prove a negative. However what I do know is, that if we were picking up everybody with the inherent talent in RL then we wouldnt have such a vast majority of our players come from one area of our country.
I also know that there are huge amounts of people who dont, and never had played our game.
All im saying is that if we can get those people with the inherent talent to play RL, playing RL then they would come through in to the professional ranks and strengthen our player pool. It will also be a much shorter wait for these people to come through if, rather than wait for the very long process it will be for the rest of the country to develop an amateur game as strong as the heartlands, clubs spend a bit of time and bit of money, looking at those with the inherent talent to be RL players and seeing if we can make them so.
That way, we can pick up Brian Carney at 14 and not 22, we can pick up Liam Botham at 14 not 25, |
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| Quote ="Richie"So we take UK athletics sprinters #20 to #80, who likely can't change direction, catch a ball, carry a ball, throw a ball, take a hit or make a hit. We invest our limited coaching resources in them (at the expense of other players of course, because we don't have unlimited coaching resources) and that's going to push us ahead in rugby league?'" why would you expect the cant do these things? They may not have done them but there is no reason to expect they cant. A fairly limited athlete like myself can still change direct, catch, pass and make a hit, and it didnt take me years to learn.
and we only take a fairly small amount of people through to elite level training (something which should be expanded anyway) so its not going to cause us to ignore other players.
Dont you think there are others like Dan Brotherton who just never thought of RL as an option? Maybe we would get more of these guys if we went out and offered the opportunity to them. |
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| Quote ="cadoo"I agree entirely.
I'd say only Wigan, St.helens, Warrington, Leeds and Huddersfield are up to a high enough standard.
Huddersfield...Kevin Brown and luke Robinson international halfbacks. dont think so
Sam Tomkins...found out (as many others with big super league reputations)
Says it all
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Is this a SL rule or an RFL rule that says clubs can spend money on scouting badminton tournaments, but not spend it on community coaching?
