Tbf as a Bradford fan that was a gutting loss. If that happened to you it would have stung too. But I don't get the use of this game to insult Bradford ("Wakefield were mickey poor and you still couldn't beat us"icon_wink.gif. Considering we were a Championship side, you were SL, it was pretty much yours to loose. Also you'd recruited like mad in the build up to the playoffs (Locke, Tansey, Sio, Mullally, Smith, Tupou, Moore) to ensure survival. Don't get me wrong we brought in Dane Neilsen. But wow never seen a club react the way Wakey did because you knew you'd be relegated if you didn't do anything. The 3 games you won in Super 8's was against Champ teams and you lost the dead rubber to Sheffield. You'd smashed us 48-18 in the 2nd week so when we played the £1million game, again, it was yours to loose. And you nearly blew it big time against a Bradford side who weren't great that day. If you'd have gone down that day after spending all that money, you could well have been in Bradford's predicament. Sounds like the rule changes that year (to include a bottom 4 qualifier) saved Wakefield. The structure the season before would have seen you down. Sport can be that fickle sometimes. But fair play, you survived and even thrived for a while. Loved the Fifita signing.

I don't think anyone wants the rules changing to allow Bradford back in. Well the fans don't anyway. Only ones that are mentioning that Bradford really are the SL chairmen who want us back and the likes of Carney etc. I certainly don't want SL if it's just going to be a poison chalice.



Correct, although tbf it did throw up some great games. All the £1million games have been great and was good to see us beat Salford and Leigh in 2015.'"

We're now singing the same song



A return to some kind of franchising and scrapping promotion and relegation would be a terrible backward step.
It is better to be relegated that it is, never to be allowed to be promoted.

Although relegation is always very difficult and can be the end for some clubs, P/R remains part of the British psyche.
Ironically though, "franchising" would be the best model for anyone keen on "expansion". It's just grossly unfair on clubs that are precluded from gaining promotion and, more importantly, I have no faith in the impartiality of the games administrators to make the "right" choices - generally, they have made a right mess of the sport. Although, getting to the end of this SL season has been a feather in their cap.

To be fair, you and I haven't had much correspondence on here as I took a small break recently and only just come back. So chances are we've always had the same thoughts on the 12th club predicament. Doubt we have the same views on the 2015 £1million match though



Franchising would be the best option for a top level competition. It would allow financial growth as there's no fear of relegation. Therefore no over spending. Same clubs would end up winning though as it would take years for clubs to develop the talent pool that the likes of Wigan, Saints and Leeds have. Warrington and Hull would be the closest. It would need to be 16 teams eventually. But again, it would kill the Championship. The Championship recently has probably been at it's best for a long time. Whether that's down to the caliber of clubs such as Bradford, Leigh, Widnes, London, Toulouse or the success that Featherstone and York have had recently, and of course the likes of Toronto and Hull KR. But the competition has been brilliant and I for one look forward to the Championship every week.

In theory franchising could work for the Championship. They could act as a 'Tier 2' completion with P/R to League 1 then every 3-5 years use franchising to keep promoting clubs to SL. Eventually you'd have enough sustainable clubs for SL1 and SL2. However that's all theory, reality is much different.

The games administrators are a joke. As are the SL chairmen who run the Super League. It's clear that they are just in it for self-preservation. Nothing wrong with that as they have a business to protect, but in that case they should not be making decisions for the game as a whole as there is a conflict of interest. Sometimes what's good for the game, isn't good for certain clubs. For example, you want to boost crowds in SL, you get rid of the team with the lowest crowds (Salford) and you put in a team with better crowds and away following (Bradford, Leigh, Widnes). You want to increase the salary cap to get/keep the best players over here and raise the cap in line with inflation (Wigan, Saints, Leeds, Warrington will be happy, you may even see a Latrell Mitchell type player come). The likes of Wakefield, Salford, Hull KR would hate that as it would mean they are shoe in for relegation. An independent governing body should run the game but obviously beforehand the RFL have employed some right numptys to be in charge or 'conmen' like Elstone.

I have to agree, getting to the end of the season was a positive but my god the sport has embarrassed itself during that time. Clubs not fulfilling fixtures. Breaking protocols. Grand Final moved to a 'home stadium' instead of a neutral ground (okay it's neutral for the finalists but Hull FC were one game from playing a GF at home). The whole Toronto debacle was embarrassing for the sport too.

TBF that's what Lowes was saying and he was right too. No one in that ground enjoyed their day and no wakefield fan (i bumped into anyway) came out of the ground happy as if they'd won some sort of final. Everyone i spoke to was just relieved.

Not sure what that game has to do with this thread though. There was a vote instigated by the Superleague clubs, the behaviour and comments of some superleague chairman was (IMO) below the belt, a number of championship and league one clubs were bullied into voting for it (a lot voted of their own free will). The thinking behind it being that superleague was the jewel in the crown, that brings in the TV rights and should be protected at all costs from financial meltdown.

The upshot of it is that as of 2022 Championship and League one clubs are likely to forego central funding because of a reduced deal, All well and good if the Championship and League one clubs were aligned to a league format and governing body that promoted the lower leagues and helped them sell their own TV rights. Short of a split that's not possible.

I don't think that's fair. Would I be saying that if we were sat at the top table? Probably not, but that doesn't make it right.

Indeed forgive me. I thought this thread was to do with the new Sky deal! But by all means feel free to preach on about the Bulls. Now do you see the point?

Like I’ve always said, this is what happens when the haves are dumbed downed to the have nots.

Ah I see where I have gone wrong. I replied to claims that Bradford were ‘helped’ by the RFL and will be ‘helped’ again to try get a better SKY deal. Sorry I didn’t realise I couldn’t discuss how wrong those statements were and actually have conversation with folk on here.

If you paid any attention to the posts you’d notice he I pretty much always brought it back around to the SKY deal. How unfair it was, poison chalice etc. I expect you just read the Bulls part though so I’ll forgive you for that



Best team from a TV deal perspective is hands down Bradford. I don’t think we deserve it but that’s fact. As I said before Toulouse, Leigh and Featherstone are the three they should choose from.

Just where is the poison Chalice?

The ownership is fairly wide with Wood Sawyer and Swain holding most the shares, they look a dedicated team in for the long haul. If they go down they can come back up. They have the business plan to make good use of the ground to attract revenue, the ground is either passed for spectators as safe or it's not passed.

It passes......

It's who SKY want to see, its a club who can attract the fans and take them round the grounds accordingly to the the benefit of all. Any idea the club is not "ready for Superleague" is absurd, as for the team they are in good hands, and Kear is the kind of man who can get 11th. spot. Who knows? time may be up on Salford who are the ones heavily in debt, whose top coach has left them. Anyone really think Salford are a stronger bet than Bulls?

I can't think of anything worse that Mr. Wood who knows the game inside out and got a half £Million pay off when he left and Mr, Sawyer, Mr. Swain and others being told no you can't come in, when all the SL clubs and SKY clearly want them in on the half baked idea not that they will just go down again (if so they can just come back up again - other clubs did this like HKR

It's a no brainer, clearly a better choice than erm Toronto Wolfpack, how did they go? Clearly a better choice than Toulouse who won't bring any fans at all and who SKY don't need - totally absurd if we start rebuilding SL as an anglo french league.

If Superleague say they are the club they want in and Bradford say they are ready to be in whose to say it's a bad idea? Well anyone on here of course but please explain HOW it's a bad idea. If anyone wants a bad idea that's to reject the Bulls directors investment into the game, tell SKY they should show a French club instead and block thousands of fans returning to Superleague with their money in their pockets ready to spend around the league.........

Toronto reached,and were accepted into ,Super League by on-field performances.

It may surprise you,but it seems Sky and Super League don't agree about everything - even though you purport to know the machinations of a few M62 club owners - and the USA people in charge of Sky.

Edited for accuracy.

You’re entitled to your perspective.

SKY and Super League have a lot of critics but I thought the pregame tonight was the best coverage I've seen from them in a long time. The lack of fans made them think out of the box. Should be similar for every playoff game and final.

Winning performances obtained by spending $$Millions on players against clubs who could not get anywhere near their "budgets"

I say "budgets" but they were in fact massive multi-$$Million losses that proved they had no business model that any other club in North America could follow

Your post is really silly, but it was worth relying to to remind sensible people on here TWP outspent their opponents by $$Millions to get where they got to, bottom of SL with no points.

As soon as they had to compete on an even playing field they collapsed.

I was referring the ‘poison chalice’ as the 12th spot. With the number of restrictions any of the clubs will have to go through to get that spot it just puts them at a huge disadvantage and that shouldn’t be the case. There is no reason whatsoever that Club 12 can’t take the same money as the other 11 clubs.

The key point in your Bradford analysis is ‘looks like a dedicated team’. Sawyer is the one that looks to be steadying the ship in terms of operation. Wood has done nothing as of yet. If I am wrong correct me please. Neither have cash, not enough to run the Bulls at Odsal anyway. They aren’t money men. Previous owners have ‘looked’ the part too. But every single one has been a failure or a con man. Forgive me for not being too optimistic about Wood (who has a track record of failure). However I’ll judge him properly at the end of his reign and hopefully I can say I was wrong about him.

The use of the ground to gain revenue started ages ago when they had the 80’s concert (Belinda Carlisle etc). The drive in movie theatre is a good idea and won’t cost a lot I don’t think. But the stock car return has been on the table since before Sawyer and Wood came in, and it’s been driven mainly by the stock car side of things?



Of course SKY would benefit from having Bradford in there but only in terms of RL viewers. But SKY aren’t really bothered because this would be pocket change to them. Having an extra few thousand watch Bulls vs Leeds doesn’t affect SKY’s pockets one bit and won’t boost subscriptions it would just boost RL viewing figures which might come in handy when SL negotiate a new deal? It’s purely the SL chairmen who set to gain. The team itself is in good hands. And if any coach can then Kear can, but the squad is a Championship playoff squad at best. We are a hybrid system and would lose some of our better players as the FT contracts we could offer wouldn’t cover their PT contracts and work wages. Leigh’s team are much better suited to be parachuted in. Featherstone deserve it based on last years results too. In terms of crowds, academies and potential, Bradford are miles ahead of Salford even now. But on the field Salford would beat us comfortably at the moment. Grand Finalists, CC Finalists. A lot down to Watson but they have a good 17.



Again I agree to some extent. A person like Wood should know what’s going to happen. He may have been told about the future plans (no relegation, franchising etc), but as far as us fans know, we know nothing. We can guess but as far as fans are concerned Elstone said there is relegation next year. Any team that goes up will be a shoe in to go down. No we can’t ‘just come back up again’ it doesn’t work like that. Hull KR had a great season that year but had they failed to return to SL they may have stayed down here like we did. London came down, had to rebuild and manage to overcome Toronto 5 years after they were relegated. Leigh didn’t go straight back up?



The 11 other SL chairmen all shared Toronto’s central funding. They never paid for travel (season never got that far). Now they have to sacrifice that share of the central monies and you can see how important that was to two of the clubs as they voted to only give Club 12 £800,000 rather than a million. So really Toronto would have been a good choice for them especially considering the financial implications of COVID this season. Only thing a 12th team does is bring away fans. Does the money earned from the away fans outweigh the central funding they all shared of Toronto? I guess that depends on the team?



The Pros:

1. Bradford are obviously going to say they are ready because £1million central funding is better than the £600,000 they get (maybe less, not sure how it works on Championship standings).

2. The crowds would see an increase as people would return to see SL rugby against better opposition. The away fans Wigan, Leeds, Saints would bring would be a good boost to money.

3. If we actually managed to survive we’d have a great platform to build for the future.

4. SL could negotiate a better SKY deal as they would have the Bradford/Leeds derby and another big club in the SL with a good fanbase.

The Cons:

1. The squad is not SL standard and we would finish bottom. We’d lose some of our ‘better’ players as FT contracts wouldn’t be as much as PT and work wage. This system works for us at the moment.

2. The owners haven’t got money to invest. Unless they have a secret backer (unlikely). Otherwise why hasn’t Sawyer invested heavily at Dewsbury to make them a top tier Champ club like Featherstone has?

3. A return to Odsal would mean the Bulls picking up the maintenance again. Plus the repairs that need doing total to £500,000 in order to get it’s safety certificate for the return of fans. It’s been a financial burden on us for years, how would that change? See point 2. Apparently it costs £30,000 just just host a game at Odsal as well. Hence why we moved to Dewsbury where it cost £2,000 a game.

4. Crowds would initially increase then decrease due to regular beatings. Bradford fans have been alienated with the previous mis-managements of the club and I fear one more could see our support just collapse. Many on here have said the same. One more and I can see the Bradford fanbase give up, no matter how loyal you are, when you’ve been sh*t on enough times it will affect you.

5. After certain relegation the FT players will pick up contracts elsewhere. Odsal becomes a financial burden again as we won’t have the income of SL. Roll on another administration/liquidation. If the off chance we keep a good squad it will be hard to come straight back up. We don’t have a Beaumont who can fund a quality team like that.

For me, at this present moment the cons outweigh the pros. Unless the 12th club has been assured of no relegation then it’s going to be a tough old year. I look forward to the Championship as we have some great games here and it’s competitive. However if we were chosen for SL I would obviously be excited and go to all the games, lap it up but I’d always have these thoughts.

Im surprised we haven't seen a move to ban other games taking place when SKY have a game on, such as Friday nights.

Some Fridays there can be about 40k fans in other grounds and that hits the viewing figures. The clubs used to claim that Friday was the best spot for getting corporate fans but this days are sadly gone, companies don't have the budget and until everyone is vaccinated they won't want to risk all their staff being shoved in a small box.

Standardising kickoff times on a Sunday is also badly needed its mad that when checking the scores you have to check whether it was a 3 or 3:30 kickoff. SKY may show a results show when no football on if they had more games to checkin on also.

Never thought about that before but that’s a really good idea to maximise viewing figures.

It may be silly to you;but is is factually correct.

I think you and fellow M62ers should be more worried about overseas coaches winning things and the M62 appointed saviour sport,Elstone,not quite managing the commercial breakthrough your mate Lenagan parachuted him in for.Unless a lower broadcast deal and free pizza was what was meant.

The M62 clubs want all the broadcast money for themselves - so they can spend less than overseas 'newbies ' and remain in the shadow of the NRL.

And with the childish name calling the conversation stops right there.....

Well, having just replied to an utterly childish post in which the author's only (and persistent) aim seemed to be to call me names, it was a pleasure to read your extremely well considered post in full. then read it again and conclude that it's a very good analysis indeed.

It leaves us looking forward to seeing how it pans out against two alternative views.

On the face of it it looks very much like promotion for the Bulls would be a poisoned chalice, however I cannot believe that their soon to be fellow club chairmen want to just use them for a season then throw them away. The main reason I say this is 2022 heralds a new SKY contract in which there will be less money and a move towards possibly a full English league (Lenegan let that slip in an interview) in which it's important that we give SKY the content viewers want to pay for and that includes a successful Bulls, and those Leeds derbies back on the calendar..

I acknowledge that you don't see how they could be successful by being promoted maybe "too early" and by not having a "rich owner" of the Davey type. It's a good analysis. I maybe don't see how they will grow into a Superleague club stuck in the championship supposedly "building" towards Superleague year after year.

My bottom line would be that as the 12th. place has allegedly been designed to hoist Bradford Bulls up because Superleague want them, then they must want them long term, not for a one year influx of thousands of travelling Bulls fans before the club finally fails on the field and returns to Championship oblivion.?

Super league should just simply ask one question. What would the Nrl do?

Answer would be Toulouse.

You don't like it when you get exposed, face it.

Thank you. Much appreciated. Always good to have debate on here.



I think so anyway, everyone else obviously will have their own opinion. I can see them using the Bulls as a cash cow because the SL will panic if the SKY deal is actually lower than we all think as it will start to affect SL's funding. The article below talks about the current deal £40million being slashed to potentially £30 million or £28million. Now if it's £30million that's okay as the SL portion will not be affected or affected only minimally, lower league will get nothing. However if the new deal is only worth £28million, that starts to affect SL's portion too. Parachuting Bulls in short term gives them a bit more negotiating power as they'll have the Leeds derby, other rival games etc. They negotiate another 5 year deal at £30 million then they are set really. They've always had short term self interest aims. Never long term. Look at all the changes in structures over the past 10 years? There's been about 3 changes. Ah I haven't seen the Lenegan interview but if that's true, it's excluding Catalans and they have still get decent crowds and a better production line than most SL clubs.

EDIT [i(forgot to include article):[/i [urlhttps://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/rugby-league-tv-deal-sky-sports-rights-champions-league-one-rfl-741881[/url



We won't be 'building' year after year. A lot of people forget we were liquidated and then relegated to League 1. 2019 was our first season back in the Championship and obviously 2020 was a write off, so we've only been a Championship club for a year and 4 games. After the 2019 season we had to sell/get rid of half the squad due to financial issues. The early signs were good last season, but that could have changed over the course of a season. So in theory we are only 1 year (4 games) into a rebuild. Can't be done overnight. But it will take two or three years before we can compete for the SL spot.



100% agree with this. The criteria has been basically written in with the Bulls in mind which is completely wrong. It should be a fair process. I really hope they want us in long term, anything else would ruin us imo. It's just a shame the game has come to this and not promoting teams based on merit. I personally think Leigh and Featherstone (more so Leigh) are suited for that 12th spot at the moment. But time will tell. Like I said, I'll be happy if the Bulls are chosen, who wouldn't but at the same time I'd feel like we shouldn't be there. As daft as it sounds I'm hoping for another season in the Champ, we were robbed of it in 2020 due to Covid and there are some great teams in there and there are some belting games especially with London, Featherstone, Leigh, Widnes, York and Toulouse all in there.

Can't see why the NRL would want Toulouse.

He's just goading people suggesting Toulouse are a shoe in. As you can see he/she makes no actual case for Toulouse.

In fact if the game wants away fans on the terraces who also follow the game on SKY by buying SKY subs then an alleged 2,000 French fans in Toulouse will do neither.

Championship club fans returning from Toulouse have at times casted doubts on the actual TO crowds, their last published crowd being only1,068. It's possible to love French Rugby League and at the same time not support their inclusion in the game here. Catalans of course were admitted to the game here to underpin a competitive French International side, an experiment they were allowed 14 years to come good with. Instead the opposite happened and we have stopped internationals with France.

The question isn't Toulouse for SL2022, the question is will Les Catalans be included? It may be noted Gausch rarely attends Superleague meetings, the chairmen not being fans of his, and at the start of this season he aligned himself and his club with Toronto Wolfpack by simply signing a big marquee player as some sort of "contribution" to the player pool. SL bosses were furious.

Well the idea of having a big crowd is as per the SL clubs lust for Bradford to be in Superleague.......is that thousands of Bradford away fans are likely to be visiting all the clubs here, spending on admissions and hospitality in the grounds along the M62.

Leeds got a below average 11,336 crowd for Catalans last time who brought few if any away fans and that's what the English SL clubs don't like. Should Leeds get Bradford next year it will probably be a sell out.

As for being a "Production Line" for players, Les Catalans closed their academy a few years back. The Bulls kept theirs going despite the financial adversity. Don't get me wrong, a well attended Catalans game in France is always great to watch, but they don't have an academy anymore, they don't underpin a French International team any more, they don't bring away fans here. they don't have a French TV deal......... Not good is it??

The 2022 season is a new era for the game so you have to look at just how little the English SL clubs think of Les Catalans, and just how much they appear to think of Bradford Bulls. Bulls could well come bottom 2021 but if Catalans are not included in the new SKY deal then they won't be relegating the Bulls even if they did come bottom. They'd probably be welcoming Leigh