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| Quote ="Noel Cleal"Haven't Widnes been there and done that?
As a Superleague club they didn't really add much to the competition with exception of a few interesting Cheshire derbies. Even as World Champions in the 80s they struggled to get crowds above the 7k mark.
Leigh and Halifax can be added to the pile. They are good part time teams that want to be more but fail financially whenever they get up to Superleague.
Bradford, depressingly, seem to be joining this group of teams that are unsustainable as full time clubs. You would also fear for HKR if Hudgell gets fed up and takes his ball home. London are the same.
The only hope is for new blood is in other teams and investors wanting to back them. Now if North America is too exotic for our pastry loving palates then we need to find more local projects that need backing. South Yorkshire, Newcastle, Cumbria, South France, The Midlands, Rochdale/Oldham all sound interesting but have never been able to get significant backing.
So until we can find a millionaire that believes in Cumbrian Rugby League then the clubs are were people are prepared to spend the money and at the moment that is North America.
So we either have to find some backers to fund some new blood or we keep on sending our medium sized clubs into Superleague like lemmings over a cliff.'"
I dont disagree with what you are saying.
However, has anyone stopped to think what will happen to RL in the UK IF we go down the N. American route.
RL has never been good at looking around the corner or, in seeing through a project that has started well (or not so well), we jump about, desperately looking for some kind of miracle cure.
Unfortunately, with this "experiment", it could end very, very badly indeed.
Although there may be a few wealthy backers over the pond but, would the 50/50 (half English / half N. American) league structure actually work ?
For a start, you would decimate the UK game, turn away 1000's of regular supporters, who wouldn't just walk away from their club but, would likely walk away from the game - believe me, I saw this when Trinity were jettisoned for the old first division.
Some will eventually come back but, others do not and their kid's dont go to the local club etc, etc, it's one hell of a downward spiral and for what ??
Toronto are Canadian in name only. Will the other newbies be the same ?? I know that the talk has been of involving the locals and going a little more "from the ground up" but, you will remember Toronto saying that they would convert Gridiron players and sign RU players - these things just haven't happened, which would indicate that they either dont want to play RL or just aren't good enough. 2 x 0 =0 |
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| Quote ="Donnyman"There's no evidence at all that Superleague intend taking any such gamble, there is no evidence of any gamble to take. All I have seen is a determination to get back to our English roots 2022.
Nobody from North America wants to make big investments in Rugby league even less so since the Aussie Argylle blew countless $$Milions on ending up at the bottom of SL with no wins and players not interested going there unless it's a last resort. No "fans" come here and nobody in NATV sports wants to pay a penny. The Silent one will take you round in circles on this so enjoy the ride.
The more interesting aspect of this is Ottawa and New York being floated for north American investors to get on board with. This is the actual gamble, people paying good money to set up an opportunity for rich Americans to sweep in. However I can only think you have to be an absolute Rugby league nut and worth countless £Millions to want to do so.
Time is ticking towards the new season 2021 start of March.... This could be the "Final countdown" to an end of this nonsesnse, unless any real major North American investors come forward. There weren't any at the launch of Ottawa and New York. Time yet
 '"
Where have you SEEN this determination to get 'back to our ENGLISH roots?
Argyle hasn't 'blew countless millions'. He has knowingly and willingly spent money which may be considered 'loose change' to such a wealthy individual.Mr Hughes at London has done similar.Along the M62 they become directors loans.You do know the M62 players are arguing about salary cuts - no suggestion the same thing is happening with overseas clubs.
Is it not better that players remain in the sport and play in Super League rather than go off to the NRL or the other code? |
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| Quote ="Ornery Optimist"Where have you SEEN this determination to get 'back to our ENGLISH roots?
Argyle hasn't 'blew countless millions'. He has knowingly and willingly spent money which may be considered 'loose change' to such a wealthy individual.Mr Hughes at London has done similar.Along the M62 they become directors loans.You do know the M62 players are arguing about salary cuts - no suggestion the same thing is happening with overseas clubs.
Is it not better that players remain in the sport and play in Super League rather than go off to the NRL or the other code?'"
Ah, so the new N. American clubs are doing us a favour, by protecting the RL player pool
For N .America to have any chance of working, they have to be able to contribute players to the sport.
Can you suggest how and/ or when this could actually happen or, will they simply overpay for the talent nurtured by Aussie and English clubs ?/ |
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Ah, so the new N. American clubs are doing us a favour, by protecting the RL player pool
For N .America to have any chance of working, they have to be able to contribute players to the sport.
Can you suggest how and/ or when this could actually happen or, will they simply overpay for the talent nurtured by Aussie and English clubs ?/'"
Unlike the Gateshead Thunder expansion at the back end of the 1990's,where the RFL parachuted in a side full of Aussies - again working from the top down - Toronto/North America may take less than the 3 decades the north east has taken.
There already seems to be a start with at least one individual on social media indicating the right mindset,regularly.
[url=https://www.totalrl.com/monte-gaddis-the-american-with-a-rugby-league-dream/They're On Their Way[/url |
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| Quote ="Noel Cleal"
So until we can find a millionaire that believes in Cumbrian Rugby League then the clubs are were people are prepared to spend the money and at the moment that is North America.
'"
No North Americans invest anything significant in Rugby league. David Argyle is an Australian who grew up with Rugby League in Australia. You should know this basic fact.
Ottawa and New York do not have rich investors, nobody turned up at their launch to claim this position.
No North American TV companies want to give a TV deal to Rugby League there.
North America didn't even want the World cup so that got cancelled.
But it's the future |
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"
Has anyone stopped to think what will happen to RL in the UK IF we go down the N. American route.
For a start, you would decimate the UK game, turn away 1000's of regular supporters, who wouldn't just walk away from their club but, would likely walk away from the game - believe me, I saw this when Trinity were jettisoned for the old first division.
'"
I stopped to think that and so have the SL bosses so we ain't going down that route. That's a "fact"...
However your enamoured with the French route as somehow you think that if Catalans replaced Widnes that would not be a bad thing? Look back and you will find Catalans DID replace Widnes. What about if Toulouse replaced Wakefield then? How about Avignon replacing Castleford?
I could then see Leeds United building a new ground to welcome thousands of new fans from Cas, Wakey, Ponte and Fev to the Premier League.
But the French bring so much to the game here. Unlike Toronto Wolfpack they have a TV deal, unlike Toronto Wolfpack they have an academy and reserves to develop players, unlike Canada they have an International side to play Great Britain annually......  Oh hang on......
Sorry mate - they have none of these things.
Mikel Simon has retired so that will make their first team almost all Anglo-Aussie, Remy Casty won't be long either...... |
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Quote ="Ornery Optimist"Unlike the Gateshead Thunder expansion at the back end of the 1990's,where the RFL parachuted in a side full of Aussies - again working from the top down - Toronto/North America may take less than the 3 decades the north east has taken.
There already seems to be a start with at least one individual on social media indicating the right mindset,regularly.
[url=https://www.totalrl.com/monte-gaddis-the-american-with-a-rugby-league-dream/They're On Their Way[/url'"
But that's not really true is it,
Having had trials at Toronto he's ended up playing for Shaw cross at dewsbury, wonder if he stood outside their club house with a cardboard sign hung round his neck like he did at Cleveland Brown's demanding a game.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BwmUAIFBHPf ... e=ig_embed
Fair play to him hope he can find a club but at 28 years old time is passing by quickly |
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Quote ="Ornery Optimist"Unlike the Gateshead Thunder expansion at the back end of the 1990's,where the RFL parachuted in a side full of Aussies - again working from the top down - Toronto/North America may take less than the 3 decades the north east has taken.
There already seems to be a start with at least one individual on social media indicating the right mindset,regularly.
[url=https://www.totalrl.com/monte-gaddis-the-american-with-a-rugby-league-dream/They're On Their Way[/url'"
But that's not really true is it,
Having had trials at Toronto he's ended up playing for Shaw cross at dewsbury, wonder if he stood outside their club house with a cardboard sign hung round his neck like he did at Cleveland Brown's demanding a game.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BwmUAIFBHPf ... e=ig_embed
Fair play to him hope he can find a club but at 28 years old time is passing by quickly | |
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Quote ="snowie"But that's not really true is it,
Having had trials at Toronto he's ended up playing for Shaw cross at dewsbury, wonder if he stood outside their club house with a cardboard sign hung round his neck like he did at Cleveland Brown's demanding a game.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BwmUAIFBHPf ... e=ig_embed
Fair play to him hope he can find a club but at 28 years old time is passing by quickly'"
He's prepared to travel continents in the hope of having his talent developed.
He has ambition, and is prepared to travel.
It's a start. |
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Quote ="snowie"But that's not really true is it,
Having had trials at Toronto he's ended up playing for Shaw cross at dewsbury, wonder if he stood outside their club house with a cardboard sign hung round his neck like he did at Cleveland Brown's demanding a game.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BwmUAIFBHPf ... e=ig_embed
Fair play to him hope he can find a club but at 28 years old time is passing by quickly'"
He's prepared to travel continents in the hope of having his talent developed.
He has ambition, and is prepared to travel.
It's a start. | |
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Quote ="snowie"But that's not really true is it,
Having had trials at Toronto he's ended up playing for Shaw cross at dewsbury, wonder if he stood outside their club house with a cardboard sign hung round his neck like he did at Cleveland Brown's demanding a game.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BwmUAIFBHPf ... e=ig_embed
Fair play to him hope he can find a club but at 28 years old time is passing by quickly'"
So much isn't true on here thanks to a few fishing for reactions, but when it comes to New York it's true they have now shifted their plans to 2022, leaving the question are the Ottawa Aces for real? If so this lad should be chasing Mr. Perez for a game. At the very least Mr. Perez could sign him as a figurehead to show the aces are open for business and planning for 2021. One man does not make a team you say?
https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/ca ... tawa-aces/
Bob Jowett leads the amateur game in Canada and provides a run down of the RL activity across Canada. With Perez committing to an element of home grown players in the Aces squad Jowett surely can find Eric a number of capable Canadians to join the squad, then what about some of the USARL lads some of whom featured for Toronto Wolfpack in their early days?
Some USA talent who did not feature for TWP popped up for the USA World cup team and although well beaten, this was against top class players in which the USA lads gave their all and were not disgraced. Surely Mr. Perez needs to get in there quickly before New York sign them for 2022? If clubs like south/West Wales, Gloucester and Oxford can compete in Championship One then Ottawa can with the pick of North American talent.
If the Aces are not for next season (and certainly not for Jan/Feb/Mar) they could look to some summer games 2021 for trials for 2022. What they cannot do now there is no P&R is to wait for Hull.K.R. to be relegated and pinch all their players like TWP did with Leigh. |
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Quote ="snowie"But that's not really true is it,
Having had trials at Toronto he's ended up playing for Shaw cross at dewsbury, wonder if he stood outside their club house with a cardboard sign hung round his neck like he did at Cleveland Brown's demanding a game.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BwmUAIFBHPf ... e=ig_embed
Fair play to him hope he can find a club but at 28 years old time is passing by quickly'"
So much isn't true on here thanks to a few fishing for reactions, but when it comes to New York it's true they have now shifted their plans to 2022, leaving the question are the Ottawa Aces for real? If so this lad should be chasing Mr. Perez for a game. At the very least Mr. Perez could sign him as a figurehead to show the aces are open for business and planning for 2021. One man does not make a team you say?
https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/ca ... tawa-aces/
Bob Jowett leads the amateur game in Canada and provides a run down of the RL activity across Canada. With Perez committing to an element of home grown players in the Aces squad Jowett surely can find Eric a number of capable Canadians to join the squad, then what about some of the USARL lads some of whom featured for Toronto Wolfpack in their early days?
Some USA talent who did not feature for TWP popped up for the USA World cup team and although well beaten, this was against top class players in which the USA lads gave their all and were not disgraced. Surely Mr. Perez needs to get in there quickly before New York sign them for 2022? If clubs like south/West Wales, Gloucester and Oxford can compete in Championship One then Ottawa can with the pick of North American talent.
If the Aces are not for next season (and certainly not for Jan/Feb/Mar) they could look to some summer games 2021 for trials for 2022. What they cannot do now there is no P&R is to wait for Hull.K.R. to be relegated and pinch all their players like TWP did with Leigh. | |
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It now looks like Toronto will not finish the season so it says in the mirror so if so do we get Leigh or the other french side
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| Quote ="Someday"It now looks like Toronto will not finish the season so it says in the mirror so if so do we get Leigh or the other french side'"
Would love to see Leigh in the top flight, their fans deserve it not forgetting a mention to Derek Beaumont whose thrown his hard earned at it enough times. |
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| Quote ="Someday"It now looks like Toronto will not finish the season so it says in the mirror so if so do we get Leigh or the other french side'"
You just beat me to that although I posted it as a new Topic. I am sure the answer to your question if TWP pull out would be that Superleague just plays out the remaining fixtures. It can't be fair on a Championship club to fill in although I am sure Mr. Beaumont would take promotion now!! But he would need assurance there'd be no relegation!!
As for promotion from the championship being on if there's an empty place, it's well overdue Leigh's turn. Give the club a break!! |
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| Quote ="Ornery Optimist"He's prepared to travel continents in the hope of having his talent developed.
He has ambition, and is prepared to travel.
It's a start.'"
While agree with what you've posted about ambition and a willingness to learn to just adds to the debate about around allowing new clubs not to produce their own talent it should be mandatory that there is something in place |
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I fail to see why there is so much Catalans bashing in this thread (albeit i am biased).
Surely the important thing is the game in this instance, and people are playing and watching the game in the area of France?
Ok we would all love more French players in the team, but then when there are people complain that they should be spread out across Superleague to improve the French national team and decrease reliance on Catalans for it.
We went more French under Fraysionous and that hardly went well so its just a fact that (for now) etrangers are needed to keep Dragons competitive.
I think that the more important issue there is Elite 1 and the issue of it being played across the winter and the level of competitiveness.
I remember when Escare came into the Dragons first team after having played domestically all winter. People then wondered why he had a slow start to his second season.
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| Quote ="Jimmythecuckoo"[uI fail to see why there is so much Catalans bashing in this thread [/u(albeit i am biased).
Surely the important thing is the game in this instance, and people are playing and watching the game in the area of France?
[uOk we would all love more French players in the team[/u, but then when there are people complain that they should be spread out across Superleague to improve the French national team and decrease reliance on Catalans for it.
We went more French under Fraysionous and that hardly went well so its just a fact that (for now) etrangers are needed to keep Dragons competitive.
I think that the more important issue there is Elite 1 and the issue of it being played across the winter and the level of competitiveness.
I remember when Escare came into the Dragons first team after having played domestically all winter. People then wondered why he had a slow start to his second season.'"
Got to agree with you here Jimmy far too much unwarranted and unnecessary Catalan bashing, all the rest of super league or maybe with the odd exception are maxed out with imported players so where's the difference, without getting further into the debate about franchising and promotion and relegation, if it were franchising maybe Catalans would be able to bring in more French players and less mercenaries which in turn would satisfy those intent on detracting they're efforts. |
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| Quote ="Jimmythecuckoo"I fail to see why there is so much Catalans bashing in this thread (albeit i am biased).
Surely the important thing is the game in this instance, and people are playing and watching the game in the area of France?
We went more French under Fraysionous and that hardly went well so its just a fact that (for now) etrangers are needed to keep Dragons competitive. '"
It's important for French Rugby League that they are in Superleague. It's important for English Rugby league big names like Widnes and Bradford return to Superleague and that expansion clubs like Newcastle get into Superleague and London get back there.
Your bias is obvious mate so your honesty does you proud. The fact is the official reason to include France in SL was to enable France.v.GB tests to return. Return they did BUT due to a lack of French talent they died again. It's important to acknowledge this and give Catalans place back to an English club. |
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| Quote ="The Silent H"So you would prefer the game in the Northern hemisphere to stay the way it is and continue to decline?'"
Garbage. Rugby League today is a fully professional sport with really good TV coverage. It's at it's strongest ever. No need to reply, I know your not serious.... |
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Even though I'm a Leigh fan, Bradford (if finances allow) are a Super League club. BUT the Odsal situation is a major problem that needs resolving sooner rather than later.
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| Quote ="Budgiezilla"Even though I'm a Leigh fan, Bradford (if finances allow) are a Super League club. BUT the Odsal situation is a major problem that needs resolving sooner rather than later.'"
The Club no longer has a problem with Odsal. Bradford council may have a problem with a hole in the ground they can longer get extortionate rates for plus many Bradfordians no longer wishing to vote for them. I am sure Bradford Bulls can grace the city of Bradford again, as a Superleague club, with the assistance of Nigel Wood. These things unfortunately do take time but like you I do hope for a resolution soon. |
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Quote ="little wayne69"If it were franchising maybe Catalans would be able to bring in more French players and less mercenaries which in turn would satisfy those intent on detracting they're efforts.'"
Bernard Gausch long ago dismissed the idea his club should be playing French players even though they were admitted to SL by Richard Lewis to do just that so we could have a return to GB.v.France tests. Those tests died out the other year and Catalans in any case don't even have a French reserve side or run a French academy.
Gausch has no intention of doing anything different to what Argyle has done. Which is nothing for grass roots RL in their respective countries. This was evidenced by every English SL club and several more committing to Reserve teams. TWP & Catalans ignored this and went out and bought marquee players...
Gausch disgusted the SL bosses by signing Folau, they asked him to come and see them and he refused. I wouldn't hold your breath for Catalans to be in SL beyond next year.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... Folau.html |
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Quote ="little wayne69"If it were franchising maybe Catalans would be able to bring in more French players and less mercenaries which in turn would satisfy those intent on detracting they're efforts.'"
Bernard Gausch long ago dismissed the idea his club should be playing French players even though they were admitted to SL by Richard Lewis to do just that so we could have a return to GB.v.France tests. Those tests died out the other year and Catalans in any case don't even have a French reserve side or run a French academy.
Gausch has no intention of doing anything different to what Argyle has done. Which is nothing for grass roots RL in their respective countries. This was evidenced by every English SL club and several more committing to Reserve teams. TWP & Catalans ignored this and went out and bought marquee players...
Gausch disgusted the SL bosses by signing Folau, they asked him to come and see them and he refused. I wouldn't hold your breath for Catalans to be in SL beyond next year.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... Folau.html | |
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| Quote ="Donnyman"The Club no longer has a problem with Odsal. Bradford council may have a problem with a hole in the ground they can longer get extortionate rates for plus many Bradfordians no longer wishing to vote for them. I am sure Bradford Bulls can grace the city of Bradford again, as a Superleague club, with the assistance of Nigel Wood. These things unfortunately do take time but like you I do hope for a resolution soon.'"
Agreed Donnyman, is Valley parade not an option ? They need to be based in the city don't they. I hated visiting Odsal, apart from that we always lost, you needed binoculars to watch the game. Their first game after they got relegated from SL was away to us in 2015, and the atendance was around 7500, mainly because they brought over 2K fans. BIG CLUB |
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| Quote ="Donnyman"The fact is the official reason to include France in SL was to enable France.v.GB tests to return. Return they did BUT due to a lack of French talent they died again. It's important to acknowledge this and give Catalans place back to an English club.'"
Or give them more time and a bit of support rather than a mountain of obstacles?
The other option would be to have an arrangement where English players and coaches worked over the winter in the French Elite 1 to bring that standard up? You would then have a bigger player pool of French players, less emphasis on Catalans and Toulouse to provide them and those test matches would be relevant. |
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| Quote ="Jimmythecuckoo"Or give them more time and a bit of support rather than a mountain of obstacles?
The other option would be to have an arrangement where English players and coaches worked over the winter in the French Elite 1 to bring that standard up? You would then have a bigger player pool of French players, less emphasis on Catalans and Toulouse to provide them and those test matches would be relevant.'"
He wants rid of any non English clubs.
It wouldn't matter if you had 17 players born in Perpignan itself, he would still want rid.
Unless their are new rules, written, agreed and enforced, Catalan will do what EVERY other club does and try to assemble the best squad that they can to compete in SL, which seems pretty straightforward.
Were the Catalan academy rated "outstanding" and yet, his poster says they do nothing ?? You can see that he has an agenda |
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| Quote ="Budgiezilla"Agreed Donnyman, is Valley parade not an option ? They need to be based in the city don't they. I hated visiting Odsal, apart from that we always lost, you needed binoculars to watch the game. Their first game after they got relegated from SL was away to us in 2015, and the atendance was around 7500, mainly because they brought over 2K fans. BIG CLUB'"
I think we were given dispensation to play at Valley Parade for a year or two whilst we pursued one of our failed Odsal redevelopments, but the pitch is way too small (short) for permanent Rugby. And the rent is absolutely astronomical too. Sadly Valley Parade is not a possibility. The aim has to be to build something on the brownfield site literally across the road from Odsal and invite Bradford Park Avenue who are in some ways our sister club. |
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