Ryan bailey is a Nazi?

TMFMISL maybe, but I can't see him being a fan of Hitler.

I dislike Bailey because of what he gets up to on the field. Am I a racist? If your answer is yes, then you, sir, are an imbecile. Do racists exist? Of course they do, do any follow RL? almost certainly, is the primary cause of Bailey being disliked a manifestation of rampant racism? No.

As far as examples go, one that springs immediately to mind is his childish/pathetic downward swinging arm to attack Chris Riley's head in the last play of the 2010 Challenge Cup final.

0/10

So why isn't Adrian "drink drive then give a false name to the police" Morley widely villified as a thug for his blatant attempt to decapitate Robbie Kearns - not the first or last time in his career either, by some distance?

Why doesn't Barrie McDermott get ridiculed as a thug, a coward and a bottler despite having a much worse disciplinary record than Bailey?

Paul Sculthorpe had a particularly cheap and nasty streak when it came to dishing it out to less experienced opposition players, yet that seems to get quite happily glossed over, Why is that?

There are plenty of players in the history of the game - and running around SL at the moment - who play(ed) the game right on the margins of what's acceptable and what isn't, yet none of those seem to get the same amount of stick Ryan Bailey does.

If it's not because he's black, then the only other reason I can think of is because he and his club have been extremely successsful and it's down to jealousy.

I'll leave you to decide which it is for you.

He is by a lot of people, Morley only has to make contact with a player 1mm above the shoulder these days for people to be outraged and call for a sine die ban because of his past record.



You've got me, as a player I hated McDermott and wasn't unknown for me to call him a dirty ****.



Are you putting words in to my mouth? See my comments re: McDermott. Same goes. I'll forever think that Sculthorpe the player was a dirty cheating scrote, ever since he knocked out Danny Nutley with a shot to the chin, which caused a stoppage of the game for a lengthy period while Danny recovered, only for saints to receive the scrum despite the video replay showing clearly what happened and no punishment being dished out either during or after the game.



lol @ this. You're not even defending Bailey, this argument is along the lines of: "Well he started it miss!". The line "you must be racist if you hate Bailey" is utter, utter, utter, utter b******s. Ben Cockayne gets tons of stick for being a nasty horrible piece of work, too. The widespread rejoice and jeering that went on in the RL community when he lost his job at Hull KR should tell you that. Maybe Ben is of mixed heritage and you can still use your racism excuse for why most people hate him, too? Oh wait, that actually clearly isn't the case.

As for Bailey getting more stick than other players, I'm not entirely sure that's true - there are lots of players who get criticised and/or called names on here, the difference is that single comments turn a small thread in to a 58 page epic every time it happens in Bailey's case because of the Leeds fans being so bloody precious about anybody daring to criticise one of their players.

Now, racism may be prevelant in Leeds and the surrounding areas to the extent that you see it where-ever you look, I don't know, but over here on the enlightened side of the pennines we don't give a **** if somebody's white/black/brown/orange/green/red/blue. Now, if you'd care to answer the question, am I racist because I dislike what Bailey gets up to on the field of play? If your answer is yes, then I suggest you see a psychiatrist to resolve this strange obsession you have.

Really?

How many pages is the thread villifying Ben Westwood for dropping on Brent Webb's head with the forearm up to? Had Bailey done that to Chris Riley, there would be a thread on here a dozen pages long before any Leeds fans had got home from the game.

If you genuinely don't think incidents involving Ryan Bailey get blown out of all proportion by the keyboard warriors on here who are eager to label him a coward and a bottler then you've clearly not been paying attention.

And FYI, I don't believe I actually accused you - or anyone else directly - of being racist.

I missed the forearm incident so I'm not qualified to comment, however, if he did do it and hasn't been punished then the RFL disciplinary is living up to it's reputation of being incompetent (FWIW, as far as I'm concerned Bailey's 3 game ban for pushing the ref out of the way is OTT, a slap on the wrists at the most as far as I'm concerned).

As for if Bailey did it to Riley, he did, in the '10 CCF as I pointed out earlier. I don't recall there being such a massive thread about it though - although I could be wrong, I was in the middle of quite a long hiatus from the site at the time.



What I'm saying is that throwaway comments condemning Bailey for what is mostly niggly play (that should be penalised, but often isn't) themselves get blown out of all proportion. It's unfortunately a self-perpetuating problem. The majority of the threads descend in to not people criticising Bailey, but people arguing amongst themselves as to whether or not they're racist for doing so - this thread is a perfect example of it.



I'm sorry but you can't back out of it that way - It is utterly illogical for you to have the opinion that the majority of criticisms levelled at Bailey are the result of deep rooted racism without implying that the majority of people who have criticised him on these forums are racist.

You are clearly accusing a lot of people who post on here of being racist, since you believe it's a primary reason for it, but you don't dare level it at anyone in particular?

the field. I'll site 2 examples and one rumour.

Example one: Picking up the mighty Kevin brown off the floor, smacking him a couple of times, then running behind the Leeds players when the big boys got involved.

Example Two: Lee Radford pastes Bailey on the floor, Bailey does nothing to retaliate, but instead tries to headbutt the monster of a man that is Sean Long.

Rumour: That Bailey headbutted one of our u20s players after the CC final last year. This has been confirmed by a few players at the club that I happen to know personally, but since there's no evidence it remains just a rumour.

These are just 3 examples as to why I don't like Ryan Bailey - the colour of his skin is not one of them. If this has been done by the oh so white James Graham, I would have the same opinion of him. The fact you bring it up, just shows your own hidden racist agenda.

I see. And do you dislike him more than, say Chris Bridge and Ben Westwood, two players who have recently dropped their forearm onto players? Lots of players get up to lots of things on the field. As I have said, before last year's Huddersfield game Bailey's disciplinary record was cleaner than most players.

So, ask yourself, is your "dislike" of Bailey proportionate to what he really "gets up to" on the field or do you perceive he "gets up to" more than he actually does. Is so, why?

No idea, I've never met you. Are you?

Well it wasn't but your response isn't very intelligent and doesn't really tackle any of the issues I raise so I've formed my own judgment about you. Perhaps it's a prejudiced judgment. People do that, whether they realise it or not, you know.

Yes, they can usually be spotted ranting in a disproportionate manner about Ryan bailey's antics.

If that is your view, then so be it. It isn't mine and had you presented a more cogent counterpoint it might have been.

It's gone down the inevitable route that if you don't like a player and he happens to be black then it's because he's black tosh. Bailey is sly, niggly player that get's into opposition players when winning a penalty, into opposition fans when winning a game. There are lots of players that have been known to put a sly dig in here and there but it's his all round general manner that he goes about his business that i and many people don't like. I would level many the same critisisms at cockayne nobody suggest's it's his colour as the reason people dislike him. The only people displaying any prejudice in this argument are the people that brought up colour in the first place.

Your assumption that I automatically forgive players of my team for misconduct, foul play and thuggery on the field says more about you than it does about me, I'm afraid. Bridge didn't get the ban he deserved, and as I've said elsewhere, I didn't see the Westwood incident so I'm not fit to comment on it, however, if the descriptions from Leeds fans on the matter are accurate, then he should have been given a ban as well.



I believe it is, yes. Notice I'm not calling Bailey a thug, the dirtiest player ever, etc, I merely dislike him.



If I am, and display prejudices freely, then every single person I know and speak to in person is a coward for not challenging me on it. When forming my opinion of someone, the colour of their skin isn't even the last thing that matters to me, it simply isn't a consideration at all. People's characters are displayed in how they behave, not in how they appear.



The issues you raised was a long and rambling, unintelligent diatribe that tried to justify your view that everybody is a racist. You are Agent Provocateur, reincarnate, and I claim my £5.



How droll.



We shall agree to disagree then, however, if you go through life branding everybody you meet a racist because there happens to be one person they dislike who has a different skin tone to them, then fair play to you, I wish you every success in being universally seen as a judgemental troll.

What side of the Pennines is Burnley on?

Or for that matter [url=http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/8389210.John_Simm_s_shock_at__casual_racism__in_Nelson/Nelson[/url?

It seems you close your eyes to racism on many levels.

I made no assumption, I merely asked a question. I sense a very defensive attitude in our discussion. Why?

You've said the two boys who play for your team deserved bans but I didn't ask that. I asked if you "disliked" them.

yes but why do you dislike him? It's because of his actions on the field. I am trying to demonstrate that his actions are, in reality, no worse than (and in most cases much better than) most of his contemporaries.

I often challenge people on their prejudices towards Bailey. I've been doing it for a while on Southstander. It's perhaps unfortunate you haven't come across anyone as enlightened as me to this point.

I do not hold the view that everybody is racist. I do hold the view that nearly all of us (myself included) are no doubt guilty, on some level, of deep rooted prejudices. These seem to manifest themselves in obvious fashion (to me anyway) in the way supporters reserve a highly disproportionate amount of bile for Ryan Bailey. That is not aimed specifically at you, by the way but generally speaking.

As for your final accusation, how insulting. I may have cadged the odd roll up from him but i do not share his personality disorder.

Noted but I don't "brand" anyone. I merely observe their actions and, if appropriate, comment upon them. Branding someone could be seen as generalising, at best and prejudice at worst. Thank you for branding me a judgmental troll, btw.

Finally, you'll note I haven't judged you or any of the others. I've merely passed comment and asked people to think about why they hate/dislike Bailey to such an extent.

At least you have thought about it in a deeper fashion than most.

Myself and many others on Southstander quite like Ben Westwood. If I made any comments about him dropping the forearm on Brent Webb's face (which as a matter of fact I didn't), then it would be purely in isolation around that incident.

I certainly dislike Bridge, who I think is very lucky he's not been called up to the beak in the past, he's been on the fine line of aggression vs. thuggery for quite a while and his elbow that got him a deserved (but lenient) ban was the RFL seeing that he had crossed that line.

Westwood, I don't dislike but his penalty-athon antics (more often than not he's simply guilty of holding players down for too long in the tackle) very much frustrate me.



Why only towards Bailey? Do JJB, BJB, etc not get singled out for this kind of criticism? I'm sure JJB has given away a few penalties in his time, as you rightly point out all players do on occasion, why do you think we don't have long discussion threads devoted to other players when they commit the cardinal sin of upsetting opposition fans? Why is it, in your view, that Bailey is the only player seemingly singled out for such treatment? Racism isn't the trigger as there are many other players who could equally come in for such stick, yet according to you it's only Bailey, so surely there's another trigger here that's involved. What do you think that is?



I don't disagree with you that we all have prejudices. It's human nature. What interests me is how people act on those prejudices, or react to having them challenged. It also must be stated that prejudice is not confined to holding predetermined beliefs based on the colour of skin, you could for example hold a prejudice that someone who finds himself utterly incapable of defending a players' actions on the field who then goes on to call other people racists is merely a troll. And I'll freely admit that that is currently my predetermined view of you.



Well you certainly share his exact views on this matter, that's for sure.



Apart from saying that the only reason they dislike (to varying levels of strength) Bailey is because of deep rooted prejudices / racism.



You're very welcome





Yes you have. You have consistently argued that the only possible reason people could have for disliking Bailey is because of racism. You can't state that quite generically and then say "But I didn't call you a racist" whenever somebody (quite rightly) takes offence to being branded in that manner. It doesn't work that way.



I don't dislike him to any extreme extent and I certainly don't hate him.



I'm always happy to discuss things, what I abhor is broad generalisation and sweeping statements that the majority who dislike Bailey only do so because of the colour of his skin. Making an ill-informed view of a single person is one thing, and it can be discussed, making an ill-informed and (ironically) prejudiced view of a whole group of people is dim-witted and arrogant.

Coward of the highest order.

Strange that you think I have defended Bailey's actions on the field. Did I not finish my first lengthy post by supporting the disciplinary action the RFL have taken against Bailey for his recent actions?

Your feverish defensive reactions appear to be continually missing the point and assuming I am saying things which I am not.

I know he deplores racism and has been known to stand up against it.

Have I said it was the ONLY reason?

Firstly, I've never used the language such as "the only possible reason". That is your emotive over reaction. Secondly, if you cannot see that I can observe what I perceive as a degree of racism or prejudice in clouding peoples opinions without necessarily judging them for it then I appear to have grossly over estimated your intelligence.

In terms of things that invoke abhorrence I would have thought this would be quite low down the list but it fits with your pattern of overreaction and sensationalism.

I've formed a view about the opinions various people have expressed. I haven't made a view about those people. I don't know most of the people. Only someone dim witted would fail to see the difference.

I know people who hold many different views and opinions about a variety of subjects. However, I am evolved enough to recognise those views, challenge them where necessary without letting the views people hold or opinions they express define them.

Bailey is not the "thug" or cheap shot merchant" that he is labelled as. Certainly no more so than his front row contemporaries in the league. Any other argument is simply unsustainable if you look objectively at his record. If people have come to the conclusion that he is a "thug/cheap shot merchant" then there must be some reason they have reached such a flawed and negative conclusion about the boy.

If it comforts you and eases your abhorrence shall we simply say that, in your case at least, you've reached your view about Bailey not because of some deep rooted yet valiantly suppressed prejudices or racism but because you haven't the first clue about what you're talking about when it comes to rugby league. Would that sit better?

Yeah, but he's gone off to Union so it's their problem now. Why are you bringing Joel Tomkins into this any way?

Would make a good flag this.

This I agree with.



As a general point though when people say things like " I have loads of black friends" and try and justify why they are not racist tend to do that for a reason. I have no doubt people dislike bailey for the colour of his skin but don't think it's the majority

You could be onto something as Bailey is the only black player in the league.

Never said he was. And my opinion is generally he is a pantomime villain. But it would be ignorant to think no one hates him because he is black

One of the primary reasons people feel the need to point out Ryan Bailey's shortcomings is to provide a counterpoint to the drooling and unjustified adulation that is heaped upon him by some Leeds fans; particularly this cult of persistently labelling him TMFMISL, which to everyone outside a few goobers on the Leeds board, is puerile nonsense.

As I said earlier in the thread, before the loonies played the race card, he's a player with many good attributes but a poor attitude - his poor attitude is typified by the cheap shots, niggles and ref-baiting antics he regularly displays, together with his habit of back-pedalling rapidly when someone retaliates.

Once again - players cannot go around putting their hands on the officials; the penalty is appropriate, particularly given his behaviour immediately afterwards.

I never said you have, because you're unable to. What you have done instead is to state that the massive unpopularity Bailey suffers from is down to the colour of his skin. It either is or it isn't. If all you're saying is that in [isome[/i cases that's what it is, then fair enough, I've no doubt that there will be some people who do indeed dislike him purely on racial grounds, but I think where you and I differ is on our belief of how prevelent that particular circumstance is. I believe it to be in the minority, you appear to believe it in the majority.



Ironically I believe a 3 game ban for what he did to be OTT





You're like a wriggling worm. Either you're saying that the majority of people dislike Bailey simply because of the colour of his skin, or you're not, and you're not really saying anything interesting at all - a bit like Stevo & Eddie who never shut up during the match commentary but don't really say anything of note.



I know you're using the exact same phrases (re: we all suffer from prejudice to some extent) as he has done on many occasions when we've discussed this.







See the above. You either believe people dislike him because of "the big dark elephant", or not. If you believe it is, then you may not have used those exact words but it's what it implies.



So what's the main reason behind many people disliking Ben Cockayne? A deep rooted prejudice against people who ... no, sorry, I'm at a loss. Both players play the game right at the very edge of what is acceptable on the field of play. Both players are either loved or hated/disliked. There is no difference.



Not really. Blind prejudice leads to over-reactionary or utterly absurd generalisations about entire groups of people. That's what racism IS. In the racism case it's based on the tone of their skin. In other cases the connecting trait can be their dislike for a person or organisation. In your case, you are immediately prejudiced against people who outwardly show/say that they are not fans of Ryan Bailey and automatically assume that they have some kind of deep rooted racially motivated prejudice.



And yet the original comment is that the reason people don't like Bailey is because of "a big dark elephant". What puts you in a position to say that without it being unsupportable prejudice?



And yet people who dislike Bailey fall in to the "dark elephant in the room" prejudice. It would appear that you're not evolved enough to recognise that so many people en-masse may just have formed a negative view of Ryan Bailey on anything other than the colour of his skin.



I would say there are others in the league who are probably worse, agreed.



Absolutely. I did my part and gave one of the 5 examples that have been called for, I'm sure there are others but the one example I gave is the one that comes immediately to my mind.



I'm afraid you've hit a dud note with that one, try again. You still seem to be under the impression that I foam at the mouth whenever Bailey takes the field willing for him to be sent off, or some such. I don't, I simply dislike the way he plays the game, and the same goes for many other players in the league. It's simply part of being a Rugby League fan.