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| The only definite centre for me is Chris Bridge, other than that a few in form people could stake a claim to the other centre position, though for what it's worth I think Atkins would get found out again.
A few injuries starting to mount up for all four nations teams (except Wales) so it could be a year of a few new guys getting a go.
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| Atkins, to my mind, was a revelation this weekend and I saw plenty of him at Wakefield to believe he'd never make a centre. I hope it wasn't a one of performance and he keeps on learning.
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| Quote ="morleys_deckchair"Shenton has missed 27 tackles this season compared to atkins 10
carmont has missed 25 and yeaman has missed 20
so much for the atkins dodgy defence myth.'"
Maybe he's not even laying a finger on them, hence he's not getting a missed tackle stat?
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| Quote ="Saddened!"Maybe he's not even laying a finger on them, hence he's not getting a missed tackle stat?
'"
good point.
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| If I was to have him anywhere in the team, I would have him on the wing. The problem we have if that our best players aren't exposed to regular instense game during the season. This is down to poor opposition and too many crap teams in super league.
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| Quote ="rally2001"If I was to have him anywhere in the team, I would have him on the wing. The problem we have if that our best players aren't exposed to regular instense game during the season. This is down to poor opposition and too many crap teams in super league.'"
That has always been my opinion on Atkins. He has the physical potential to be one of the best wingers in the world.
England would look so much more solid with wingers like Atkins and McGilvray that wouldn't get bullied and ragdolled like they usually do. Big centres in Shenton and Reed too.
1 - Welle.... Tomkins
2 - McGilvray
3 - Shenton
4 - Reed
5 - Atkins
6 - Widdop
7 - Lomax
8 - Graham
9 - Roby
10 - Carvell
11 - Ellis
12 - Burgess
13 - Westwood
Is the ideal 13, I take it Burgess will be out?
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| I was really looking forward to seeing Atkins play in the 4 Nations last year and I (like many) was very disappointed when he came up short
Having said that, he has improved his game again this year ā in particular his passing game has improved considerably and (to quote Phil Clarke) he threw a pass at the weekend that we wouldnāt have been capable of last year
If we do give him a run in the 4 Nations then we need to do this in the position that he has been played all year ā the left centre ā otherwise we are doing him and the team a disservice. For me, picking the team on form, the left centre seems to be a straight matchup between Yeaman and Atkins. In Atkins favour, he is bigger and faster than Yeaman while neither have an exceptional passing game. In Yeamanās favour, he is probably a safer bet than Atkins as you would expect him to be sound defensively and he has certainly taken his chance internationally before and not looked out of place. Also, he would form a club wing/centre partnership as you would expect Briscoe to get the nod on the left wing
This is a really hard call for me as Atkins was poor last year... but if Wire make a run all the way to the Grand Final and Atkins plays well I would be just about tempted to go with him as we will not beat Australia and New Zealand by going for the safer options and we need a backline full of athletes for me
If Yeaman got the nod, I would be comfortable with that... what I definitely wouldnāt want to see of players playing out of position
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| Not picking Jack Reed Dunbar?
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| Quote ="morleys_deckchair"Shenton has missed 27 tackles this season compared to atkins 10
carmont has missed 25 and yeaman has missed 20
so much for the atkins dodgy defence myth.'"
I love it when people try and isolate statistics and claim they show the full picture.
Yeaman - 224 tackles, 20 missed. (You can have that one!)
Atkins - 278 tackles, 10 missed.
Carmont - 448 tackles, 25 missed.
Shenton - 618 tackles, 27 missed.
So while Atkins does indeed miss fewer tackles, he makes a hell of a lot less of them too.
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| Quote ="Saddened!"Not picking Jack Reed Dunbar?'"
To be honest, Iāve not seen enough of him to make a call (plus not sure if he will be an English player)
Looking at Super League, I would say we have a little competition for centre these days. Atkins, Yeaman, Welham and Laurence for left centre and then another group who could do a job at right centre ā Watkins, Bridge and Shenton in particular plus J Tomkins who has played a full season there
If winning the 4 Nations was a priority, I would probably go for Yeaman and Bridge but if we were looking to build for the future I think Atkins and Watkins could become a very athletic and dangerous centre pairing if they continue to develop as they are
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| Quote ="Guerrier"I love it when people try and isolate statistics and claim they show the full picture.
Yeaman - 224 tackles, 20 missed. (You can have that one!)
Atkins - 278 tackles, 10 missed.
Carmont - 448 tackles, 25 missed.
Shenton - 618 tackles, 27 missed.
So while Atkins does indeed miss fewer tackles, he makes a hell of a lot less of them too.'"
Lies, damn lies.....
Good post there.
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| Quote ="Guerrier"I love it when people try and isolate statistics and claim they show the full picture.
Yeaman - 224 tackles, 20 missed. (You can have that one!)
Atkins - 278 tackles, 10 missed.
Carmont - 448 tackles, 25 missed.
Shenton - 618 tackles, 27 missed.
So while Atkins does indeed miss fewer tackles, he makes a hell of a lot less of them too.'"
Maybe Warrington spend so much time attacking Atkins doesn't have the opportunity to make as many tackles. Attack being the best form of defence.
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| Quote ="Miro"Maybe Warrington spend so much time attacking Atkins doesn't have the opportunity to make as many tackles. Attack being the best form of defence.'"
Perhaps - but the point of that post was to highlight that you can't use a missed tackle stat without clarifying it.
On their own, it looks like his defence is vastly tighter than that of Carmont and Shenton. But when you realise that they have made 170 and 340 more tackles respectively, you see that it isn't as impressive as when the stat is there on its own.
I'm not taking anything away from Atkins, but the post I quoted was selective and misleading.
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| Just to be fair, here's Welham's
Tackles completed 355
Tackles missed 57
13.8% missed tackle rate.
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| Quote ="Guerrier"I love it when people try and isolate statistics and claim they show the full picture.
Yeaman - 224 tackles, 20 missed. (You can have that one!)
Atkins - 278 tackles, 10 missed.
Carmont - 448 tackles, 25 missed.
Shenton - 618 tackles, 27 missed.
So while Atkins does indeed miss fewer tackles, he makes a hell of a lot less of them too.'"
So, what this tells us is that Atkins' missed tackles ratio is 3.6% of those that he made compared to Shenton at 4.4%, Carmont at 5.6% and Yeaman at 8.9%
The stats still stack up in Atkins favour
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| Quote ="Dunbar"So, what this tells us is that Atkins' missed tackles ratio is 3.6% of those that he made compared to Shenton at 4.4%, Carmont at 5.6% and Yeaman at 8.9%
The stats still stack up in Atkins favour'"
They do - its an excellent ratio, but when you mention the missed tackle count only, it make the difference seem massive when its reasonably comparable to, say, shenton.
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| Quote ="Offside Monkey"They do - its an excellent ratio, but when you mention the missed tackle count only, it make the difference seem massive when its reasonably comparable to, say, shenton.'"
Precisely.
Quote ="Dunbar"So, what this tells us is that Atkins' missed tackles ratio is 3.6% of those that he made compared to Shenton at 4.4%, Carmont at 5.6% and Yeaman at 8.9%
The stats still stack up in Atkins favour'"
Yes, but 3.6% and 4.4% missed tackles are both good and fairly even stats over the course of a season.
10 and 27 missed tackles on their own look like a chasm in defensive class.
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| Quote ="Guerrier"Precisely.
Yes, but 3.6% and 4.4% missed tackles are both good and fairly even stats over the course of a season.
10 and 27 missed tackles on their own look like a chasm in defensive class.'"
So what the selectors need to consider is the above ratio, where Atkins is superior, combined with who is considered a better positional defender, where the feeling is he is lacking.
[iIts better to be on hand with 100 men than absent with 10,000 (Machiavelli)[/i
Shenton has struggled to impress this year because of lack of ball. Saints just don't spread the ball to the right with the same ease. He still threatens, and often when Meli puts Foster in, its the play after Shenton has caused bother on his side.
He's still got it, Pryce fed him well for one of my favourite tries of the season against Catalans. The pace he came on to the ball and split the line was incredible.
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| Quote ="Guerrier"I love it when people try and isolate statistics and claim they show the full picture.
Yeaman - 224 tackles, 20 missed. (You can have that one!)
Atkins - 278 tackles, 10 missed.
Carmont - 448 tackles, 25 missed.
Shenton - 618 tackles, 27 missed.
So while Atkins does indeed miss fewer tackles, he makes a hell of a lot less of them too.'"
that's because we always have the ball
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| Quote ="Guerrier"I'm not taking anything away from Atkins, but the post I quoted was selective and misleading.'"
ok then.
Yeaman misses 8.9% of tackles
Atkins misses 3.5% of tackles
carmont misses 5.5% tackles
shenton misses 4.3% of tackles
is this one selective and misleading?
*edit.... i see someone has already put you right on this
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| Quote ="morleys_deckchair"that's because we always have the ball
'"
I hope that's the case against Austrailia
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| Quote ="Guerrier"I love it when people try and isolate statistics and claim they show the full picture.'" also... at no point did i claim that these stats show a full picture... you jumped to that conclusion.... I was using them to point out that this season he hasnt been a defensive liability, like many seem to think he is...
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| Quote ="morleys_deckchair"ok then.
Yeaman misses 8.9% of tackles
Atkins misses 3.5% of tackles
carmont misses 5.5% tackles
shenton misses 4.3% of tackles
is this one selective and misleading?
*edit....=#FF0000 i see someone has already put you right on this'"
Hardly, we were all agreeing to the same point.
You have to admit, whilst Atkins still has the better stats in terms of the percentages (and vastly so compared to Yeaman), factoring in the amount of tackles made in place of just stating the missed statistics shows a better, more accurate picture.
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| Quote ="Guerrier"Hardly, we were all agreeing to the same point.
You have to admit, whilst Atkins still has the better stats in terms of the percentages (and vastly so compared to Yeaman), factoring in the amount of tackles made in place of just stating the missed statistics shows a better, more accurate picture.'"
I'm not disagreeing..... and I'm not arguing a case against all the other centres.... im arguing it FOR atkins.
the best attacking and defensive centre in SL
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| Quote ="morleys_deckchair"also... at no point did i claim that these stats show a full picture... you jumped to that conclusion.... I was using them to point out that this season he hasnt been a defensive liability, like many seem to think he is...'"
If anything, Guerier, galvanized that point.
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