Maybe, it's certainly the likes of Cas and Wakefield fans who are (rightly) more concerned.
The question is - is the best way for the sport to improve itself to include a Crusaders club who cannot seem to run for a season without lurching from one problem to another? I am actually in favour of expansion (yes, really) but it has to be done properly and with a fairness to existing clubs.
And I'll also point out that if Cas don't get a franchise in 2011 there will be nobody to blame but the club themself.

The rules on the pitch state that you are allowed to select a maximum of 13 players and 4 interchange players. They are the laws of the game that make a sport a sport. How you select those 17 players isn't. That is a competition issue.

B*llocks do you believe that. You've started a thread saying that the sport isn't credible because of this, that and the other, and now you're saying that if Cas don't get a license it's their own fault? Doesn't that make the system the sport is run in credible if there is no-one to blame? You can't make you're mind up.

The Crusaders, like a lot of things that have needed to happened in RL, need to be stuck with. They are a project. They are underpinning the development of rugby league in Wales, which in turn will not only help SL's profile but international RL's profile (so two different competitions).
Expansion will not happen if all clubs are treated the same. The expansion sides will never catch up. And that appears to be what some people want.

What would your reverse situation be, just to clarify?

this thread and many others like it just expose what pretty much each of us are - narrow minded bigots on completely opposite sides of the argument! I, as a flatcapper, do not trust the RFL one inch. I do not trust their strategy and I certainly do not trust their competence. None of the lot of them would survive in business as far as I can see. Others, as expansionistas, are prepared to swallow the whole lot hook, line and sinker. No matter how bad things get there will always be some semantics employed and some "clever" rhetoric to defend the indefensible.

To be honest, the right answer is somewhere in between, taking the blinkers off and judging each and every case on its merits. Some pragmatic decisions have to be taken that may be unpalatable and inconsistent but are for the good of the game in the long term. Some bad decisions are also made.

However it seems like we prefer to persist with the pantomime insults and catcalls so...as you were everybody!

Except they are surviving, they have taken a loss-making company and now turn a healthy profit. Nobody has 'swollowed the whole lot', if you had read the posts then you will see that people are more than willing to point out the faults with Crusaders etc. The difference is that it is done in a constructive way, rather than simply labelling the RFL as a bunch of cheats and constantly whinging about how unfair things are. The people who seem to identify as 'flat cappers' are almost always fans of clubs that feel they may be at risk if expansion takes place, and their opinions are almost always club-motivated. It's not a case of differing sides of an argument, because one side is not neutral. If you were neutral, you would see that the RFL are generally on the right track - the implementation may not always be the best in certain areas, but the right intention is there. Unfortunately, some of those who constantly criticise the RFL do not have the game's best interests at heart, only those of their clubs.

a lot of sense there but my only gripe with the RFL is it's inconsistency - it seems to treat the same situation differently depending on the club involved which then gives the idea of mistrust & shiftyness etc otherwise the bunch of old farts generally do the best for he sport IMO

quite right but the 'project' could just as easily have taken place in the Championship 1 as in the SL - wales,or certainly a lot of it are rugby daft so it's a great market to tap into and develop - another three years in the Championship would have allowed Cru to improve their infrastructure etc and make a realistic bid now IMO

So, your "point" is that the Origin games, the World Cup, Wigan v Saints, the Challenge Cup final, the Grand Final, the Championship final, the playoffs in both hemispheres, none of this is "credible sport", because a couple extra itinerant Aussies can play for a small fledgling expansion Welsh club, in a country with no unattached SL standard RL players.

Is THAT your point?

Just wow.

edited for broader context etc

are you talking about the WC's?

I don't know how we're meant to expand - I'm no businessman, but I think we've tried the top down system, it's failed. We've tried a bottom up approach - it's also failed. The only system that's worked is having two perfectly viable clubs (St Esteve and XII Catalan), merge and form a better club that could compete, it had an existing fan base (albeit a small one) and has most of what it needed to be successful, despite having a couple of blips, we have seen France become a new found force in RL, crowds have gone up, and up, and up, relying entirely on the tourists and the home supporters. That's excellent IMO. That's the best way forward, we need to look at where the existing clubs are, and work from there, if we see an influx of fans to an area. In Wales, we now have the infrastructure, and the smaller, but noticeable fan base, now it needs to have players that can become symbols in the local area. A Second Welsh Team, far off yet, but if it does come could create an unforgettable rivalry, and a marquee game for RL in Wales.

I can dream anyway.

well said,mon ami

Really? What evidence is there to suggest expansion hasn't worked in the Rugby League Conference?

Indeed... from 12 teams in 1997 to the list below 13 years later - what a failure

[uRLC National[/u
Bramley Buffaloes
Carlisle
Dewsbury Celtic
Featherstone Lions
Hemel Stags
Huddersfield Underbank Rangers
Kippax Knights
Liverpool Buccaneers
Nottingham Outlaws
Warrington Wizards

[uMidlands Premier[/u
Birmingham Bulldogs
Gloucestershire Warriors
Leicester Storm
Coventry Bears
Derby City
Bristol Sonics

[uYorkshire Premier [/u
East Leeds
Haworth Park
Milford Marlins
Moorend Thorne
Rotherham Giants
Scarborough Pirates
York Lokomotive

[uNorth West Premier[/u
Lymm
New Broughton Rangers
Runcorn
Widnes Saints
Wigan Riversiders

[uWales Premier[/u
Blackwood Bulldogs
Bridgend Blue Bulls
Cardiff Demons
CPC Bears
Newport Titans
Valley Cougars

[uPremier South[/u
Eastern Rhinos
Hainault Bulldogs
Hammersmith Hill Hoists
London Skolars
Portsmouth Navy Seahawks
South London Storm
St Albans Centurions
West London Sharks

[uWomens South[/u
Northampton Demons Ladies
Nottingham Outlaws
Coventry Bears
West London Sharks Women

[uWomens East[/u
Keighley Cats
Whinmoor
Leeds Akkies
Brighouse Ladies
Stanningley Ladies
Guisley

[uWomens West[/u
Warrington
Wigan Ladies
Halton
Chorley Panthers

[uMidlands Regional[/u
Birmingham Bulldogs 'A'
Coventry Bears 'A'
Leamington Royals
North East Worcestershire Ravens
Nottingham Outlaws 'A'
Telford Raiders

[uYorkshire Regional[/u
Barnsley Broncos
Bradford Victoria Rangers
Leeds Akkies
Lincoln City Knights
Parkside Hawks
Shorpe Barbarians
Wetherby Bulldogs
Shaw Cross Sharks

[uNorth West Regional[/u
Crewe & Nantwich Steamers
Chester Gladiators
Wigan Riversiders 'A'
Mancunians RL
Blackpool Sea Eagles

[uWales Regional[/u
Amman Valley Rhinos
Merthyr Wildcats
Neath Port Talbot Steelers
Dinefwr Sharks
Torfaen Tigers
West Wales Wild Boars

[uSouth West Regional[/u
South Dorset Giants
Plymouth Titans
East Devon Eagles
Devon Sharks
Exeter Centurions
Somerset Vikings
North Devon Raiders
South Somerset Warriors

[uSouth East Regional[/u
Sussex Merlins
Oxford Cavaliers
Swindon St George
Greenwich Admirals
South London Storm 'A'
Elmbridge Eagles
Guildford Giants
Southampton Spitfires

[uEast Regional[/u
Bury Titans
St Albans Centurions 'A'
Bedford Tigers
Northampton Demons
Norwich City Saxons
St Ives Roosters

[uNorth East Regional[/u
Northallerton Stallions
Cramlington Rockets
Sunderland Nissan
Newcastle Storm
Jarrow Vikings
Peterlee Pumas
Durham Demons
Wallsend Eagles
Whitley Bay Barbarians
Winlaton Warriors

[uScotland Regional[/u
Ayrshire
Kirkcaldy
Easterhouse Panthers
Carluke Tigers
Edinburgh Eagles
Fife Lions
Falkirk
Moray Eels

A slightly out of date list, but a point well made.

is if they are funded independantly to any other club , the only way this can be done without causing massive upset to clubs/fans and the sport in general is if it is done through the RFL , this applies to both clubs at Championship level and SL

RL lacks credibility? Even in comparison to;

FIFA
Italian soccerball
Soccerball hooliganism
Wayne Rooney
Snooker - John Higgins
Pakistani cricket team
Blood and machanical doping in cycling
Golf - Tiger Woods
South African Atheletics - Caster Semenya

Add to that list the RFU disciplinary board, former Harlequins RU coach Dean Richards, current player Tom Williams and recent revelations that one of Spain's all time top athletes is [ireportedly[/i heavily involved in a doping scandal. ([url=http://www.singaporeathletics.com/world-news/marta-dominguezMarta Dominguez[/url).

But yeah, RL lacks credibility because it wants to replace one of its long-time underperforming clubs with a better performing club

which clubs are you talking about ?.

the difference in crowds between the expansion club Crusaders, and heartland (dont make me laugh) club Catalans prior to bringing them into SL was about 300,

We spent 100 years trying a bottom up approach it failed miserably, after ten years of trying it the other way with at least one successful pro club, and lots of success in the amateur scene at another, we have some fools wanting to go back to a system we know doesnt work. Its crazy

Crusaders didnt work initially, we know its been a bumpy ride but look at RL in Wales now compared to 5 years ago.. you're telling me that isnt progress?
We've fallen rolled and with a stroke of luck reached somewhere, im just not sure how we should have got there in the first place. One could argue 3 more years in the Chp would have done them good, im not sure that was the right call.
The only thing we've learnt for definate over the SL expansion era, for me, would be to say, like Catalans you're in at *insert date* no matter what; spend the next 2/3 years preparing.

That is the BIG thing.

After this set of franchises. Any Club at any time can bid for a place, if they are accepted they have three years to prepare in the lower leagues, then you are in.

Clubs in there are constantly assessed and if they are continually failling they are dropped.