no it isnt, having a wider geographic spread has many potential advantages, especially when it comes to selling sponsorship and advertising



because when you have 3 clubs within 10 miles of each other, they start to step on each others toes, we have proved time and time and time again there isnt the talent in the heartlands to sustain the league, this is why clubs need so many overseas players,

another club, in another area, opens up a whole new area and pathway for elite players, players who simply didnt have RL as an option before, and no club can have been producing players for years and years unless at one stage it had limited roots, the same as Cas once had limited roots in RL, so did Quins, now both are doing some great work, not everything in RL needs to be immediate

also representative numbers wasnt number of players who can represent us, it was number of people who are represented by and have a link to an RL club, which is very important again in terms of sponsorship and advertising




turn of phrase, it was supposed indicate that for this to happen the club would have to be run well, it was to compare and contrast with the above list which was put into the context of what would definately happen, as the context of these would be what should... but may not if the clubs isnt run correctly.... happen

i thought that was pretty simple tbh



no it isnt, Advertising for RL is generally sold on a block basis by sky, the sell to these advertising slots for about companies who are looking to target males 15-34, there are only so many males between the ages of 15-34 who exist in the heartlands, the audience is limited by the fact not everybody is that age and that sex in the heartlands, so we need more people in general, so we can have more people of that demographic so that sky can charge more for their advertising slots, so our value to them goes up, so they pay us more for the rights, so we have more money to invest in the game

simple



so amateur RL is is just the sky audience actively engaging in being a fan? what an odd thing to say



who would be disillusioned other than the club that got dropped? which would likely be a small club based in a small town which doesnt really contribute to the value of the tv rights contract,

Sky wont pay less because the 50k people we could (generously) look at as Cas core target market were no longer represented, a fair portion of that would go to either Leeds or Wakefield and of those that dont who cares, its only going to be at most maybe 5k people who leave the game,

Sky might however be happy to pay more to give their sponsors the chance to reach the 700k in the nottingham urban area,

when Cas play on sky(or in fact any team) only a tiny fraction of 'cas' fans make up the audience, the vast vast majority are neutrals, who are completely unaffected by whether cas are in SL or not, dropping them and replacing them with a.n. other would barely register in terms of audience figures,

the market which would be alienated wouldnt be the RL market, it would be a tiny fraction of the RL market that support Cas, and even then a fair portion of that would be replaced by the new club, a fair portion would drift to leeds or Wakefield, a fair portion will still watch RL on tv, and only a small portion would be lost,



numerous reasons, 1) we cant go on forever expanding the size of the top league, not everyone is an elite club,
2) we barely if at all have the player pool to support 14 teams, we are no where near being able to support 16/18/20 teams
3) every team added means the pie is cut a little smaller, most clubs struggle financially the pie simply isnt big enough to support more teams
4) some clubs arent very good, even though they are in the elite league, they arent elite clubs, we have too many at elite levels who are too close together, when we have such vast swathes of the country unrepresented it would be better to have 2 or 3 top quality clubs in west yorkshire for instance than 1 top quality one and 4 struggling ones


not yet, you still need to survive two more franchise judgements

I think Smokey raises some very good points but I agree with the initial point that no club should be dropped for an 'expansion' club at this time.
I feel this was the reason that Cas or Wakey weren't dropped last year, there's no point destroying a current SL club for a 'gamble'.

In time that might change, however what i'd like to see in time, possibly ten years would be two conferences. RL has always been innovative in this country and if we had 20 teams at some point i'd like to see an East and a West conference playing each other home and away and playing each team from the other conference alternating each year H/A, 27 games plus Magic, culminating in a Grand Final between the conferences.
Or possibly a playoff system involving the top 4 from each combined to form a top 8, similar to the NHL system.
Thoughts?

People attack the 'rights' of a SL club to exist, but there seems to be no counter argument along the same lines that is challenged to a so called expansion team.

Namely,

'What right does a newly instituted team have to take the place of a club that is functioning satisfactorily?'

In may cases we have a well funcitoning League. Teams are improving facilities, have established decent juinor set ups and have sound business plans.

Of course there are also the fine traditions many of our clubs have - and the fact that they are woven into the fine tapestry of the Greatest game.

Any 'franchise' team should have to do it the Celtic way which starts at NL2 or 3 and works there way up. Even then there is a valid question surronding player development.

Risk and respect for exisitng teams are key.

personally i think that is the way it will go, as a european competition we are always going to get to a point where one league isnt enough and we are too big, splitting it into two divisions i.e SL1 and SL2 will still leave a lower league and be no different really to the championship,

there are pros and cons to a two tier SL, but i agree that a conference system with playoffs would be the way to go

It depends on how the Championship progresses as a stand alone competition I suppose.
We're not in the same position as football, by that I mean we can afford three or four tiers full time with great crowds. If the championship progresses like that then so be it but we need to get as many professional clubs playing at the top level as possible. With the knocks teams get in SL a 20 team straight league could well mean 38 league games (unless you use the NRL system) and a hell of a lot of travelling.
The conference system means we could keep most of the derbies, expand the competition without playing 40 odd games a year. It would also mean when one of the 'big' opposition conference sides, say Leeds travelling to Wigan, would ensure bumper crowds.
On a slightly different note I reckon it could be used as a format to bring back a SoO.

to answer that you would need to define satisfactorily

are the stadiums at Cas, Wakefield, Hull KR, and a few other satisfactory? or are they in need of improvement,

is the youth development at these clubs satisfactory or in need of improvement,

are the attendances satisfactory? The business model? the marketing? the investment? the training facilities? they match day experience?

how many of these things need to be satisfactory for a club to be judged as functioning satisfactorily? who judges the satisfactoriness of a club? is it an objective or subjective judgement? is it weighted in certain areas or a flat? who decides the weightings? are all clubs judged on the same level of satisfactoriness i.e judged against each other? or are they judged against themselves, their potential and their progress towards that?

is satisfactory enough? surely at elite level we would be wanting all clubs to excell to push the boundries? surely simply existing and meeting the basic level is disrespectful to the clubs trying to push the boundries forward, and clubs that do this are holding the game back? are clubs who simply meet a minimum level satisfactory? not in my opinion, maybe not in someone elses, maybe so

and if a club isnt satisfactory then surely it is better not only for the club looking to replace them, but the whole league that they are replaced?

the problem with the championship is, if it progresses to a point in becomes a viable SL two, with 2 full time pro leagues and p and r between the two, it stops becoming the top division of the championship and starts becoming the 2nd tier of SL, and that makes it harder to sell, it stops becoming what made it successful a viable stand alone comp, and goes back to being simply a proving ground for SL, i think a conference system is better in that it can accomodate more clubs, yet still keeps it the top level

im not sure we will ever see a return to p and r




maybe, im not sure how we could split it into east and west though with a european competition, pretty much everything on the continent is west, which would leave us with a lancashire league which included a welsh side, then everyone else

maybe a draw every year would be better,

But at this stage can we afford to destroy current clubs in our competition? Some people say there isnt the player pool for 14 teams but I disagree. While I wouldn't be rushing to make it a 20 team league I certainly feel we have the pool for 14.
Unless something major went wrong at a club I wouldn't boot them. The worst case scenario at the moment is Wakey not getting a ground but if it actually came down to that I feel they could rent from Cas.
As for Salford, while it looks slightly gloomy at the moment i'm confident they'll have it sorted in the end.
KR I feel are worth a mention. I feel they've made great strides without the massive backing some clubs have and although I'd call CP not quite there yet, they're working hard to rectify that.

If the championship became a viable competition you'd still have the Elite clubs in SL. I refer to the clubs you talked about in your previous posts as not being Satisfactory, those clubs wouldn't make the cut and the top 12 or so would.
I'd have the boundary being the Penines pretty much. Or literally the conferences so it would be an all star game between the two.
FWIW I was just providin a slightly different argument, I agree with the conference system, hence why I suggested it. The RFL could reach a major crossroads in the years coming up.

This is essentially the ethos behind all you're arguing isn't it? "Screw the little guy, they don't maximise my profits". My stance revolves around avoiding disillusioning even the little guy when there's no real reason to do so, and when you continually refer to that as a "strange" way of thinking I just feel sorry for you.

But that's life and business.
The weak die, the strong survive.
Like I said though, no club should be dropped yet. We're all still weak in the grand scheme of British sport so we do need to watch each others backs

Yes I know, but when franchise criteria are in place and being met there's no 'deadwood' to cut out, is there?

we are probably at the very edges now, 14 maybe but we cant stretch it much further,

the problem we have is that Widnes are aiming to be ready for 2012, so are Toulouse, then Gateshead, Skolars and Sheffield around 2015, which means we have another 5 clubs looking to be ready for SL in 5 years time (the decision will be made in 2014 for the 2015 season) if all succeed in their plans and are ready when they aim to be, we are going to have a situation where we either expand to 16 in 2012 and 19 in 2015, which is probably too much too soon, we leave clubs who are ready in the championship which isnt a good idea, or we drop one or more of the teams in there



what would be the point in that? when space in the league is at a premium, why not consolidate here?



if Salford havent made movement on their stadium pretty soon, i think they will become manchester



they have a decent fan base, besides that they are no further on than wakefield, Cas or a few other clubs,

their problem is they are overshadowed by a much bigger neighbour, i think they are also at risk,

maybe so, i can see the benefits, but i agree, i prefer a conference format

this is sport and life for you

elite isnt for the little guy its for the elite

if all clubs were at or close or had route to being A licenses that would be the case,

The thing with Toulouse is they would be fishing from another pool, that's why I feel they will be ready come 2012.
Widnes/Leigh in 3 years time we should have the player pool to support another club, especially if they have their own youth structures in place (Franchise Criteria) that's my opinion anyway.
Personally I wouldn't be looking to expand further in '15, it's a bit of a way away so hard to tell. If two teams were to be promoted in '12, which I think they will then a current SL club MAY have to go by the wayside.
You mentioned consolidatino between the two Calder Valley clubs. Maybe, however come 2012 one might be in such a stronger position it could well be a takeover never mind a merger. I have a sneaky feeling Wakefield could be dropped depending on how off the field matters progress and many of their playing staff move across however if they can sustain themselves and pass the criteria, they stay, regardless of who's ready below unless that team proves they have their market.

But it's not 'franchises' for you, is it? How come the Cincinatti Bengals are still in the NFL? They've been consistently sh*t for years after all. How come the Packers are there? Relative to the rest of them, they're a very small town.

Franchising is supposed to be about raising the standard of everyone who has one to an appropriate (in this context, elite) level, then expanding that base for those who aspire to join. For an organisation to lose a franchise they should be either persistently failing to meet the required standard over an extended period or have commited such a heinous sin as to make their continued participation utterly untenable. Given that no organisation is going to willingly commit suicide in that way it should be a very rare thing indeed, wouldn't you agree?

They don't need to be A licenses though do they, because in reality it is impossible for a club outside of SL to put together a bid good enough for an A license. The best they could achieve would I guess be a "strong C".

I imagine that every existing SL club ought to be a B or strong C by 2012 and if I recall correctly clubs can only move up or down 1 grade at a time so even a B would guarantee that clubs inclusion for 6 years which sort of makes life very difficult for any potential new entrants.

so you would be more comfortable with the owners of say Castleford moving the club lock stock to say leicester?



i think eventually yeah, but right now we arent at a position where any club is meeting the eventual required standard, any of them,

some arent far away, probably only leeds and hull could say they are close, but both can and need to improve,

the rest arent close, some are very far away indeed

the minimum standard we are asking now is pretty low, and as the league is structured now, i dont believe it is possible for all the clubs to make a the standard we will ask of them, some have made very little progress towards that,

its worth remembering that in your example, there has been many changes to the make up of the the NFL mostly in moving to bigger cities

for clubs outside SL yes, but we are talking about the clubs already in SL



and if that was the case great, but there will still be clubs who wont, without the stadium improvements, and with the faillings they currently have in youth development, i dont see Hull KR getting a B

similarly, without a new stadium i cant see Cas or Wakefield getting a B, ill ignore celtic for the moment as they are different but i doubt they will be at 'b' status either, nor Salford without their stadium improvements,

there are 4 or 5 clubs who are a bit away from making B status,

in 2012 i would hope to see Wigan and Saints get to A status, for Sts most of that depends on their new stadium, possibly huddersfield making a jump too,

i would also fully expect Les Cats to be at B grade, and im confident with a bit of luck Quins can too and Bradford to still be a 'b' club,

if that is the case, and we have 5 or 6 'A' grade clubs, and 4 or 5 'B' grade clubs, then the standard to attain an 'A' and 'B' grade will rise and the 'C' grade clubs will be judged on progress towards that

so then we have the 4 'C' clubs, HKR, Cas, Wakefield and Salford, who are at risk, maybe one or two get their stadiums, maybe HKR build that new stand and scrape a 'B' maybe Salford get theirs, then those two are sitting pretty,

which then only leaves Cas and Wakefield as 'C' clubs it then becomes pretty easy to drop one of those two, and even easier if only one gets a stadium

you may disagree with the ratings i have given, but im sure you can see how some clubs are at risk unless they improve

Yes, the ratings are debatable and I agree that clubs are at risk if they do not improve. But it is conceiveable is it not that all the current "at risk" clubs improve in sufficient areas to make strong C or (if you like) weak B applications. That I think is an almost insurmountable challenge for any club with aspirations to join SL, if the number of teams in is not going to be increased.

Why would an existing club even if it is still a C be removed to be replaced with another C grade club?

I appreciate that there is a place promised for a Championship side next time but I don't think that necessarily means an existing SL club will be demoted or that any future similar promises will be made.

I suppose Cas might be analogous to the Packers, and it's true that various NFL franchises have relocated from time to time. Little old Green Bay isn't one of them. Of course, who's close or far away from the SL franchise standard is pretty subjective. You didn't mention Wire for example, but didn't they get an 'A' grade too? We all have our favourites...

To extend the NFL analogy though, if the Cas board did decide it was in their best interests to relocate I would certainly condemn them, but at least it would be their business decision to make... it wouldn't be a precondition of retaining their franchise. In that light it won't happen any time soon, given that British fans' psyche is different to Americans'. British precedents for such a move have hardly been a resounding success.

I reckon that the table at the end of the the third season will look like:

1.Leeds
2.Warrington
3.Hull FC
4.St Helens
5.Wigan
6.Hull KR
7.Bradford
8.Huddersfield

Bill, I think this is one of the problems with the way the franchise criteria is set out. Like you say, clubs that are outside of SL and making great strides are handicapped by the fact that they aren't already in SL, whereas a club in SL that is underperforming can still look good in comparison because they are being propped up by SL.

Example: crowd differences, income differences, playing standards.

It's totally unfair for the Championship clubs.

IMO, there should be a criteria for Championship clubs and a criteria for SL clubs. If they want a 10,000 average in SL, then they should be aiming for about one-third of that for the Championship. Same with income. Playing standards have been accounted for already (top-8 average vs GF appearance). I think a club like Salford would struggle with a Championship criteria if they were in there, and Widnes wouldn't.



I think that if a SL club cannot achieve even a B status after having over 3 years in the SL then their SL future should be in extreme doubt. If clubs can't sort their grounds out then they seriously need to look at other parts of their franchise. We'd all love as many clubs as possible in SL, but there's a limit, and there are too many decent clubs building in the Championship who want to make a real go of it to just let C grade clubs drag them down. Cas, Wakey, Rovers, Celtic, Quins, Salford need to be showing progression. Rovers are building their crowds and upgrading their stadium. Cas don't seem to be moving forward or backwards at all but are getting somewhere with their stadium which should move them up a level. Wakey are improving, but they were REALLY poor before so is it enough? Salford desperately need their stadium. Celtic and Quins can't always play the expansion card.

There's Widnes, Leigh, Halifax of the heartlands clubs and Gateshead, Toulouse and Sheffield of the expansion clubs in the Championship that have access to a SL quality ground and are building as clubs. There's no room for complacency.