Cheer up, Scotland will need some filler players next world cup.

I'm perfectly cheered thanks

Grix
Murphy
Cudjoe
Wardle
Murphy
Ellis
Robinson
Girl
Wood
Huby
Lawrence
Ferres
Jack Hughes
We'll 5hit em

Surprised you put a girl at prop.

Percival has played a few seasons at SL now, got all the skills that lad and will be a future regular if not this season for England. I like Sarginson but I've seen him get ripped a new one a few times this season, he had a shocker against Chris Bridge when Warrington went to Wigan a few games back.

That post sums up why its a really hard job coaching England. We just don't play enough games to give the likes of Percival a go under less pressure. Its fine for those players who are head and shoulders above the rest and maintain their form (like Graham), but when you have players of basically similar ability (e.g. Percival/Sargison) it's hard if the incumbent previously did well but is out of form.

FWIW I thought Sargison did well enough to deserve anther go this year. What impressed me was that he played without fear against the best in the world. Having seen far too many British 'star' players shrivel up vs Aus in particular (to pick a Leeds example - Danny McGuire), I'm happy to give him a second shot even if he's not in the best form.

Once, you've seen it once!

Awful night for him but he's bounced back since. His defence was sensational against Cas on Friday and has been pretty much since he came to the club.

I'm a big fan of Percival also and Jack Reed though so I certainly wouldn't have Sarginson as a certain starter.

1. Sam Tomkins
2. Hall
3. Sarginson
4. Watkins
5. Makinson
6. Widdop
7. Smith
8. Graham
9. Roby
10. Hill
11. Whitehead
12. Joel Tomkins
13. O'Loughlin

14. Walmsley
15. George Burgess
16. Cuthbertson
17. Bateman

I think international rugby is not the right place to have Sam Tomkins attempt a move back into the halves having not played there for so many years. That bench is absolutely huge too, to match the kiwi pack. Quite happy to see Sarginson picked again after his performances last year. One thing the Aussies do well is stick with people who perform at Origin/International level, even if they're not in the best form. I think Greenwood would be pushing for a second row spot if not for injury, and I think Percival will be an international centre by the end of next year. Gone for Makinson over Briscoe/Charnley/Burgess simply due to his finishing - an ability to convert tries as well as he does is huge when defences are solid. He can also play fullback if needed due to injury in a match (I'd still have Hardaker in the squad though).

I can see 6 players out of those mentioned who may cause concern for a full Kiwi squad, the rest have a lot of work to do, but the systems are not yet installed for this to occur but are in part started

As they say, from little acorns.................. ,and to start a journey you have to make the first step.

FWIW I don't think in terms of speed and strength the English players are lacking.

Percival is already better than Sarginson. Joel Tomkins? Purlease!

Is Percival injured again? Didn't see him against Catalan.

Joel Tomkins has been excellent lately, in both attack and defence.

1. S Tomkins
2. J Burgess
3. K Watkins
4. D sarginson
5. R Hall
6. G Widdop
7. M Smith
8. G Burgess
9. M Mcilorum
10. J Graham
11. J Tomkins
12. L Farrell
13. S O'loughlin

14. J Roby
15. T Burgess
16. A Cuthbertson
17. Bateman/Currie/Greenwood

J Tomkins has been top drawer this year, Farrell played well last year and people keep telling him he's too small.

Clark has been iffy so far so I still say let Mcilorum whack people for a bit then bring Roby on.

I don't agree at all. Hill was a shadow of his former self against Saints. Aside from the outrageous dummy and try I don't recall seeing him.

And let's be honest - it's against the big packs that you really need guys like Hill to perform. You couldn't say he was taking the ball up with any kind of the relish he did two seasons ago. Contrast with Sims who really did put his body in where it hurts time and time again.

I don't like picking players on past form. And we have plenty of good props in SL.

Perhaps, but it's one thing looking decent against Super League teams and another doing it against Australia and New Zealand. Sarginson was one of our better players in the tournament last year. Tomkins is big and athletic with decent hands for a back rower, plus it's one of our weakest positions. His control of the ruck should improve as he carries on re-adapting to the code. Not like we have an abundance of big, athletic second rowers!



Chris Hill ran for 127 metres against us compared to 96 for Sims, made 7.47m per carry compared to Sims 6m, made 32 tackles to Sims' 23 and missed 1 tackle to Sims' 2.

...and has plenty of experience at playing in the centres.






Whitehead? Currie?

Both Whitehead and Currie can be caught out in defence.
Against Internationals the calibre of NZ then we need experienced men in the pack who are proven defenders.
The back row should be Westwood, J Tomkins with O'Loughlin at 13.

I think while Tomkins has played in the centres, why play him out of position if we don't need to? Whitehead yes, hence my naming him in my team!

With Currie I think give it another year or two and he'll be playing internationally. I played with him at juniors so always kept an eye on him. He was ill towards the end of 2013 I believe and lost quite a lot of weight and strength, and I think all of 2014 he looked a bit lightweight for a second rower. This year he seems to be breaking a lot more tackles so I think another year or so in the gym and he'll be really threatening. His speed and footwork for a second rower is ridiculous.

by 'a few seasons at SL' you mean 7 games this year, 14 games last year and 10 the year before that?
but its Sutcliffe and Manfredi who should be discounted because of lack of experience?

The only thing J Tomkins will contribute to an international is an England loss thanks to foul play

Yes. You've provided a statistical interpretation of the game. Which, I'm sure you know is like providing a photograph of a person which starts at the kneecap and finishes at the soles of his feet.

Perhaps for a halfback or hooker for example your point would be valid. For example, Cameron Smith might make less metres or make less tackles than James Roby, but this doesn't show how well Smith controls the game, meaning Smith's superiority wouldn't be reflected in the stats.

However, with props, stats tell you most of the things that matter for them. How many carries they make, how many metres per carry and how many tackles they make. This grunt work is the main job of props, and Hill, both in that match in particular, and over the season has outperformed Sims. It's no coincidence that probably the 4 best props in Super League at the minute - Walmsley, Peacock, Hill and Cuthbertson - are the 4 props who have made the most metres.

While stuff like getting a quick play the ball is hard to reflect in stats, there are two ways you can estimate this. Average gain - Hill made 7.47m per carry compared to Sims 6m - so on average Hill had a 1.5m bigger run up every time the defenders tackled him, so is more likely to find his front and get a quick play the ball. Tackle busts - if a player is breaking tackles he's more likely to find a half gap or a weak tackle and get a quick play the ball - Hill made 5 (the most for a forward after Walmsley with 7), compared to Sims with 0. Perhaps there is some obvious key component of a prop's game that I'm missing beyond carries, metres per carry, tackles and tackle busts, that isn't reflected in the stats, but I'd be really curious to find out what it is.

Sarginson crabbing reached epic proportions tonight, culminating in HKR's winning try. Going sideways on an exit set and we are supposed to think he's international quality.

Poor again tonight, shooting out the line and missing tackles, england my a[ir[/ise.

Oh sure - apart from one or two piddling litle answers such as: WHO is doing WHAT when it MATTERS MOST?.