Does it really give GB more hope of winning?

Does England RU produce players that would be better league players than the Kangaroos have got?

I'm trying to think who the contenders would be. Ben Foden, Matt Banahan, Toby Flood etc, maybe an outside chance of Danny Cipriani. They could probably convert to league and do OK, but would they be able to give us that edge to take us ahead of Australia?

There is nothing in RU that would improve us, certainly not at international level.

If it cost £250k to sign Joel Tomkins it's going to cost at least the same, if not more, to sign somebody who is capable of making the grade at the much more physically demanding sport of RL. Given that's likely to be the case how much more would a club get from investing £250k on its own youth development? You could get six, seven or eight excellent youth coaches (and maybe add in a couple more community development officers) for that kind of money and what kind of return would that give you in comparison.

Throwing money at expensive players, who are probably no better than what we've already got, is a recipe for going bust. We should be using our money to develop our own players rather than poaching others.

But we are talking about the clubs who already have 6,7, or 8 excellent youth coaches. There is a limit to how many players one club can bring through.

The fact is we dont bring through that many players of the quality of Joel Tomkins, thats why he would have been in the England squad, and it is why RU were prepared to spend £250k on him.

And players that we would bring in from RU could easily be better than many of the players we have in our league. SL is filled with some pretty poor overseas players who cant even be called journeymen. You cant tell me that the likes of Banahan, Youngs, Care, Simpson, Foden, Ashton, Tuilagi, wouldnt be among the better players in our league.

Well spend it in other areas then e.g. community officers, marketing, conference & banqueting, getting into schools, free summer programmes, better stadium facilities etc. The list is pretty much endless and all are geared to generating more revenue so that they could build to put themselves in a position to purchase players.



It's an expensive risk especially when teams aren't splashing out that kind of money on proven RL players now. I would question the comment that RU players could easily be better than many of the players we have in our league and wonder how you've arrived at that assumption.

But they already have this money to purchase players. Thats what we are talking about. Clubs who have the money to spend on bringing in better quality players.

I think it would be naive to think otherwise. Like it or not RU is a professional sport now, they do the things that we do and in the main part, look for the things we look for, and pick the players we would have picked. The same reason a player like Robinson, or Ashton, or SBW or Tuquiri have been success in both codes is the same reason there are some players in RU who code be a success in RL. Its arrogant for us to believe there are no players in their code who would be success in ours. We have had a long long history of RU players coming over to league and being great success, why would we expect that had stopped?

They were saying the same about no talent in Union in the 90's yet it was the closest we got to beating Australia and we have the likes of Davies, Devaraux, Tait, Gibbs, Quinnell, Offiah etc etc padding out the GB team. I find it very hard to believe that in the entire UK RU scene there isn't 3 or 4 top talented players better than we have in RL. If Leeds or Wigan or Hull or Warrington want to spend 250-500k bringing them to RL then great, let them I say!

So i think were all in agreement that it should be abolished.

The problem is there isn't. I'm guessing you are not a RU fan so don't follow it, I do and RU players would not boost the England team now (of course if you signed the Wales RU players they would be better than the semi pros that play for Wales at league but that's a different story).

You aren't going to get any props, hookers or second rowers transferring from union to league because their specialist skills would be redundant and they wouldn't be mobile enough for league. From the forwards you could look at some union back rowers like Quinnell, the one I would look at would be Tom Croft who is quick for a forward but I don't see him being a better bet in league than the guys like Westwood, Ellis, Heighington and so on anyway.

As for the backs, if we could get Chris Ashton back he would be in the mix of the England side possibly ahead of Briscoe but Ashton can be flaky so he'd have to tighten up, he's the type of player the Aussies or Kiwis would target. But he is fast and a good finisher. I wouldn't bother getting Shontayne Hape back he is past his best. Matt Banahan and Manu Tuilagi are big guys and battering rams but they would be flat footed against the Aussie and Kiwi centres. They could probably have Super League careers but they aren't guys that would give us an edge over the Aussies internationally. Same goes for Delon Armitage he could make it in SL but would not be in the England team, he's nowhere near as good as Tomkins and I'd have Richie Mathers ahead of him as an England fullback in league.

There's a lack of talent at scrum half in union, as for fly-half this has been a problem since Johnny Wilkinson first got injured in 2003. I have no doubt the Wilkinson of 1999-2003 would have been a top player in league, he would have been GB stand-off for sure, his defence was well up to the job, he was like Andrew Johns for being a playmaker that could hit like a loose forward. He would have adapted his kicking game to league and he is the type of determined professional that would have been a success. Since he got injured the edge came off his game but none of the much hyped other pretenders ever managed to take his place hence Wilkinson has still been around. Toby Flood IMO is overrated he just doesn't bring anything special to the table. Danny Cipriani is a celebrity more than a rugby player (same goes for Ben Foden at fullback), if he came to league I expect there would be a lot of hype, he'd bring column inches to the game, he'd have some good games but erratic on the whole. Imagine Danny Brough with celebrity girlfriends and a load of Twitter followers, that's Cipriani. Would he be better than Brough in league....? Touch and go. Brough is ahead for me.

So yeah, some of these guys could come to league and they would get SL contracts and could hold down places in SL teams but they would not be automatic England selections and there isn't one union player that I can say would honestly give a boost to the England team. There aren't a load of amazing U21s knocking on the door either. Even back a decade ago when England were on their way to being the best side in the world I wouldn't have had any of their players other than Robinson and Wilkinson, England's success was built on having the best forward pack in the world and Wilkinson's boot, with big and capable backs rather than outstanding backs, kind of like Bradford dominating SL with guys like Naylor, McAvoy and Shane Rigon in the backs.

You are Bashar al-Assad, and I claim my £5

There should be a £5m salary cap. A perfect compromise. A cap to keep those who want to keep the little clubs happy, whilst allowing the richer clubs to use their chequebooks a little more freely.

This would also allow us to compete more fairly with union.

We need more covenants though...

- Academy trained players under 21 should not count on the cap
- Welsh or French players should not count on the cap, to encourage development of their national sides.
- England players should count at 25% on the cap, to encourage development of our national side.
- Academy trained players under 23 should count at 50% of their salary
- Other players count 100% of their salary on the cap
- Australians count 150% on the cap
- Australians over 28 should count double on the cap.
- Clubs need to prove viability and availability of funds to comply with the above. Setting a %age of income is not an option because this does not take into account a rich businessman, for instance, injecting funds into the club in order to improve turnover/profit in years to come.

To be fair we only need another 5 millionaire owners pumping money in to Salford, Bradford, Wakefield Castleford and KR and we'd be fine.

Wire, Wigan, Leeds, Hudd, Bronco, Hull FC, Saints, Widnes and Catalans are either doing well, have good financial structure in place or have a rich despot in charge.

Crap.

No directors loans or borrowing? How is the club meant to stay in existence, never mind grow for the future without any facilities?

Clubs are businesses like any other.

Quote ="Horatio Yed"To be fair we only need another 5 millionaire owners pumping money in to Salford, Bradford, Wakefield Castleford and KR and we'd be fine. Wire, Wigan, Leeds, Hudd, Bronco, Hull FC, Saints, Widnes and Catalans are either doing well, have good financial structure in place or have a rich despot in charge.'" KR have a millionaire backer, it's why we've been able to run at significantly losses for the last couple of years. www.parasolgroup.co.uk/about-us/ ... ment-team/ www.silverlinesales.co.uk/about/

Quote ="Horatio Yed"To be fair we only need another 5 millionaire owners pumping money in to Salford, Bradford, Wakefield Castleford and KR and we'd be fine. Wire, Wigan, Leeds, Hudd, Bronco, Hull FC, Saints, Widnes and Catalans are either doing well, have good financial structure in place or have a rich despot in charge.'" KR have a millionaire backer, it's why we've been able to run at significantly losses for the last couple of years. www.parasolgroup.co.uk/about-us/ ... ment-team/ www.silverlinesales.co.uk/about/

I think quite a few people on this thread are massively over-estimating the amount of money the "richer" clubs have available to spend. Even the ones winning trophies and backed by wealthy investors have still posted losses in recent years. I don't have the figures to hand but I know Warrington have not always posted a profit in recent years. And whilst not wishing to diminish Mr Moran's much appreciated support, I'd like to point out it certainly doesn't run to pouring millions into the club.

The Salary Cap may not be perfect but I'm pretty sure the sport would be in a much worse position without it.

Who are these teams with loads of cash splashing around? I know Saints have a rich owner but we haven't made a profit in quite a while and, at a guess, I'm pretty sure most other SL teams don't either. How is transferring money from investments in revenue generation to transfer fees (to RU I hasten to add) better for our sport?

Leeds, Hull, Wire, Hudds could easily afford it, Wigan have publicly stated a desire to do it. Saints as you say have an owner who could afford it.

And why are our playing staff an investment? Theres only so much money we can spend promising jam tomorrow, we need to actually at some stage put the product on the pitch.

If paying out a 200k more for a name from RU brings in 1k on his debut, 100 extra season tickets he is pretty close to paying his extra value off. Warrington famously made money from paying Andrew Johns a fortune, their investment in him meant that they actually earned money to invest in these other areas, aswell as all the free publicity they got and not to mention the fact we got to see a big name player playing in our league.

That doesn't mean its sustainable in the same way that in a real business world Manchester City's spending wouldn't be sustainable. We need business models that work and I'm not sure that what you're suggesting would do that.



Agreed.



That's a fair point.

Thats fine when its Andrew Johns. There are no English RU names that would have the same effect. The biggest player you could sign would probably be say Wigan signing Chris Ashton back and would that bring the pie eaters flooding into the JJB to see the genius that is Englands best outside back in union, playing league?

If it's a case of paying out big money to get a big name in then go for Jonathan Thurston or Benji Marshall. If it's a RU player then it would have to be a case of going overseas, getting Dan Carter or someone in.

Financial Fair Play is the answer.

Exactly. Union are having the same trouble that League is having ie loads of good forwards but very little class in the way of backs. Why else are Union clubs poaching League backs? It's because they're having trouble developing their own. So instead of going looking for big names to throw cash at, why not pump that money into something more long term worthwhile?

Say several national Academy of Excellence style structures to help nurture and develop a bigger player pool?

Clubs want to spend more money on players. That's fine if there's enough quality to go round. But at the moment in this country there isn't.

Exactly. Just because players get paid more doesn't make them better.

I remember when Kevin Penny came through there were RU clubs after him and Warrington gave him a good deal to keep him in rugby league. You can bet if we hadn't come up with the goods to keep him everyone would have been saying it was a crying shame for the game to lose possibly the greatest talent since Offiah to have come out of rugby league, and that the money spent bringing a 30 odd year old Chris Hicks would have been better invested in Penny.

I think Manchester City show why salary caps are needed

I like to think of it like F1. If the cars werent restricted by rules then Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull would be even more dominant than they already are as their money, which already funds far superior development anyway, would put them miles in front of all the other cars on the grid because they financially cannot keep up and require the help of the restrictions to stay moderately competitive.

For example:
British GP 2011
Gap between 1st and 19th (lowest placed finisher after retirements) 3 laps
British GP 1992 (some restrictions in place but not to the level of now) 1st and 16th gap was 4 laps

Now I know that might not sound a lot but 1 lap is HUGE in F1 so to have made it that much more competitive is exactly what the FIA are after.

And this is what the RFL are after but these things take time. Once the lower teams start to learn from the higher, richer teams how to develop cars/players depending on the sport then the sport will become closer.

I think the next step forward is to restrict the number of outside players allowed in a team not just foreign players for example I will use Wigan vs Wire (only other team I know about really)
Using the teams used in the last game between the 2 last season:

Warrington:
Riley -Academy
J Monaghan,- Overseas
Bridge - Bradford
Atkins - Wakefield
King - Overseas
Briers - Saints
Myler - Widnes
Morley - Lets just say elsewhere
M Monaghan - Overseas
Carvell - Again just elsewhere
Anderson - Overseas
Grix - Halifax
Cooper - Academy

Replacements:
Harrison - Academy
Clarke - Wigan
Mitchell - Academy
Blythe - Academy

Just 4 players that were grown by Wire themselves. However I think if they are there as long as Briers and Clarke was then maybe they should be allowed to be counted in the academy figure.

Wigan:
S Tomkins - Academy
Charnley - Academy
J Tomkins - Academy
Carmont - Overseas
Richards -Overseas
Deacon - Bradford
Finch - Oversea
Coley - Salford
Leuluai - Overseas/Quins
Lima - Overseas
Hansen - Overseas BUT our academy trained. There are arguments over this but if Man Utd bring a Welshman through their academy is he not Man Utd Academy trained? (Giggs

)
Hoffman - Overseas
O'Loughlin - Academy

Replacements:
McIlorum - Academy
Prescott - Academy
Farrell - Academy
Hock - Academy


The reason, like I stated above, I chose Wire was because I know a little about their team and alot more compared to others in the league, for example picking on Hull or Hudds wouldve been better but wouldve required more research haha.

Anyway the point is that the sport requires time to develop Wigan have developed that team over many years Wire are only just now starting to build a team based on their own talent which is why they must buy in so many other players because their own are simply not ready yet or they simply havent learnt enough yet on running their academy/scouting in the same way Wigan can.

I know for a fact that my brothers friend is in the current crop of Wire youngsters (17 atm) and hes going to be a good player and theres better because I've seen it. Not meaning to compliment another team but Wire have big times ahead in their forwards if they nurture these guys properly. Wigan have known how to do this for years, as has Leeds and Saints and its the rest of the leagues time to start catch up and for me limiting the number of non-academy players in a team (in a 25 man squad) would be the best step to take rather than a salary cap. I think the salary cap should only be a last resort. Imagine a league where noone ever lost players to union or NRL. Imagine a league where Saints still had Graham and Eastmond. Wigan still had Ashton and the other youngsters from a couple years back like Thornley.

The kids are the future. NOT the salary cap.

Yes.

Other clubs have had long enough to sort themselves out finacially. If others clubs bring more money in then they should be entitled to spend more.